US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

[cubfan]

You're kidding, right?

not at all.......certain things have to happen.......but we'll see.

 

[oscarjazz]

Yo Oscar,

It is always nice to have a Delta pilot give us advice over here in the east! Just in case you missed this a while back.

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement:
12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330--------$222.26 A330------$152.22
Group 1----$201.35 Group 1---$137.52
Group 2----$174.85 Group 2---$119.42

Your last line is a classic! You can delay, but never win. You underestimate the resolve of the east pilots. Even if the 9th doesn't go our way.......this group will never vote for the Nicolau in a joint contract. That you can take to the bank!

I am getting ready to get my first installment of the lump sum in a few weeks.......we in the east have alot to look forward to in the coming months!



Hate

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for those pay rates. You will get your 3% raise, but that's it. I understand you have resolve, but resolve to do what, destroy your careers by chasing a pipe dream? The East pilots that are pursuing this fool's errand could use some good advice, because you are spinning out of control. The Addington case and your pension wild goose chase are examples of needlessly wasting your money.

I am glad you are getting your lump sum, congratulations. I got about $50,000 worth of Delta stock last year as part of the merger. I also got a pay raise, more sick leave, and better DC contributions. 4% raise this January and more DC. So you can have all the resolve you want, I prefer cash, it pays the bills.

You should turn your resolve into healing the deep wounds within your pilot group and then getting a better contract from your company. That would at least have some hope for a payoff. What USAPA is doing now is just slow motion suicide.

 

[Hate2fly]

You'll get 44K+, but you have to wait all the way to Age 65 to receive that sum.

And you'll probably be working under LOA 93 until you reach that age.


If you think Addington/USAPA has taken too long to resolve, wait until you see how Tempe delays-delays-delays in the unlikely event USAPA prevails on the snapback issue.

Mind you now, I hope you are right and the snapback and yearly raises happen. A 50-50 chance perhaps.

JS,

We will get more than 45K......."wife PBGC"........I went low on the number so as not to rub it in. I don't mind waiting until 65 for the money.

J, Team Tempe doesn't have a clue! You are a smart guy and must realize that our pay restoration will only cost the company less than $2 per ticket. They realize that when we win the dispute on the pay restoration...........any chance of a single list is over. Three years from now we are back into our attrition and everyone on the east list will be flying up the list. Any new hires that come to the east will always vote with the east to remain separate. They will realize that the only way to get into your seat quickly is vote with the east. It really is quite simple!

As far as being right about the pay restoration don't take my word on it, just read Donn's two documents on the subject.........but I'm pretty sure you already read them.

J, I hope you are well.

Hate

 

[Megasnoop]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for those pay rates. You will get your 3% raise, but that's it. I understand you have resolve, but resolve to do what, destroy your careers by chasing a pipe dream? The East pilots that are pursuing this fool's errand could use some good advice, because you are spinning out of control. The Addington case and your pension wild goose chase are examples of needlessly wasting your money.

I am glad you are getting your lump sum, congratulations. I got about $50,000 worth of Delta stock last year as part of the merger. I also got a pay raise, more sick leave, and better DC contributions. 4% raise this January and more DC. So you can have all the resolve you want, I prefer cash, it pays the bills.

You should turn your resolve into healing the deep wounds within your pilot group and then getting a better contract from your company. That would at least have some hope for a payoff. What USAPA is doing now is just slow motion suicide.

Glad ALPA is servicing you so well, better than they serviced us, but you sound like neener, neener, neener, I got mine, ha, ha, ha. Otherwise, I'm not sure what is your point. ALPA obviously negotiated your merger contract better than ours. One neat package, including seniority list in less than a year. That either reflects poorly on ALPA's representation of us or shows how difficult it is to deal with our management. Either case, that was long before USAPA. Jabs only incite non-productive responses, so I won't pass on any got-yas. About snap back, if we lose in arbitration, ALPA better re-examine its concessionary contract policy section or learn better negotiations, because ALPA wrote our LOA93/84. Any property with time-limited concessions will have that precedent to deal with in the future. No one will ever sign one again. Also, you can't have it both ways, we either get the pay raise and the 3% raises going forward or we get neither. They were both part of the same LOA 93 section.
Deep wounds? We're not exactly split 50/50. Maybe 6 years from now we'll be, but now its more like 66/33, and we're mainly split on NIC. ALPA isn't going to get back on property any time soon. NIC/Addington will be resolved soon in court. For all its accused faults, absent the NIC debate, USAPA's got great cooperation and improved unity with West pilots. The recent west additions to the committees and AOL founder Ferguson as a new BPR show so. If we were split, we'd have typical ALPA recalls and roll-call votes. Most votes have been near-unanimous, with little dissent or fighting in the leadership. The BPR has been hands-off in not allowing any actions or votes involving NIC, pending appeal. So all this deep wounds is just nonsense from someone outside who posts here for who knows why.
The pension investigation is yielding Congressional and legal interest. This is something ALPA refused to persue. We're beginning to see why.
One last thing (not refering to you), I take offense to insults one West pilot continues to make to one of our own who is fighting a courageous battle against cancer. It's not the first time we've seen that kind of talk. Cheap shots against someone who is in no position to fight back right now. Its a very strainge mindset.

 

[Hate2fly]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for those pay rates. You will get your 3% raise, but that's it. I understand you have resolve, but resolve to do what, destroy your careers by chasing a pipe dream? The East pilots that are pursuing this fool's errand could use some good advice, because you are spinning out of control. The Addington case and your pension wild goose chase are examples of needlessly wasting your money.

I am glad you are getting your lump sum, congratulations. I got about $50,000 worth of Delta stock last year as part of the merger. I also got a pay raise, more sick leave, and better DC contributions. 4% raise this January and more DC. So you can have all the resolve you want, I prefer cash, it pays the bills.

You should turn your resolve into healing the deep wounds within your pilot group and then getting a better contract from your company. That would at least have some hope for a payoff. What USAPA is doing now is just slow motion suicide.

Yo Oscar,

You should be praying that we win the pay restoration! It will help you secure much better pay rates than you have today.

I am always delighted to see when someone such as yourself is so interested in what we east pilots spend our money on! Why should you care? We would never tell Delta pilots what to spend your money on..........after all it is your money!

The wounds from this merger will never heal........Team Tempe even knows this!

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

JS,

We will get more than 45K......."wife PBGC"........I went low on the number so as not to rub it in. I don't mind waiting until 65 for the money.

J, Team Tempe doesn't have a clue! You are a smart guy and must realize that our pay restoration will only cost the company less than $2 per ticket. They realize that when we win the dispute on the pay restoration...........any chance of a single list is over. Three years from now we are back into our attrition and everyone on the east list will be flying up the list. Any new hires that come to the east will always vote with the east to remain separate. They will realize that the only way to get into your seat quickly is vote with the east. It really is quite simple!

As far as being right about the pay restoration don't take my word on it, just read Donn's two documents on the subject.........but I'm pretty sure you already read them.

J, I hope you are well.

Hate

That is quite a little drama that you have put together. To bad that none of it is based in reality. As we are seeing now the dynamics of situation change. Anybody want to say they predicted LGA and BOS being closed?

Anyone want to predict that we will or will not be US Airways three years from now?

As far as DB prediction about “pay restorationâ€￾ That is a single mans opinion with no authority. The only guys opinion that counts will be the arbitrator. But then again we all know how east pilots react to arbitration decisions they don‘t like.

Just to be very clear. We have a single list now. What we don’t have is a single contract. Without snap back that LOA 93 is going to get old real quick.

 

[luvn737s]

My neck gets sore from shakng my head over the stupidity that comes out of the USAPA Negotiating Committee. Their fear mongering over the 99/108 pay cap is laughable. By negotiating PBS first, they would understand that PBS cannot build lines to 99 hours. The only risk to staffing will come from people picking up trips with plenty of soft time (what's that?). So what they are trying to defend against is not the company, but their own people. Under lines, perhaps there is some risk, but then again it comes more from people building intentional conflicts. Improvements (no matter how modest) are being denied so that a few can game the system.

The rest is simply ludicrous. In essence they are saying that money and time off are of less value than continuing the already-lost Nic fight with the west. They compare a solid offer of increased wages with some ephemeral promise of what they can deliver and the upward trajectory of wages. Anyone want to ask the Midwest pilots about the upward trajectory of industry standard?

What has USAPA delivered so far? Reach in your pocket or look at your bank statement and answer that question yourself. And how can a complete lack of past performance ensure any future return? They charge the same as ALPA for inferior service, then tack on taxes (assesments) to cover additional boondoggles. Any group could do a better job than USAPA at representing the pilots and soon they will get the chance.

Why bother having a professional negotiator if he gets his marching orders from these morons?

 

[nycbusdriver]

...wait until you see how Tempe delays-delays-delays in the unlikely event USAPA prevails on the snapback issue.

It doesn't really matter how long the company delays, delays, delays. If the arbitrator rules that the LOA 93 pay rates do indeed expire on December 31, 2009, there will be back pay owed starting January 1, 2010. Might make for one awesome lump sum restitution, especially if the company delays, delays, delays.

And we will soon know just how confident the company is that the LOA 93 pay rates continue indefinitely. If they do delay, delay, delay, it simply means they don't want to face facts and they know they are on shaky ground. If they are fully confident of their position, they will get right to it and get it over with. Should be an interesting couple of months (not like we've had any shortage of those in the last 15 years.)

 

[luvn737s]

Is fully confident different from Supremely confident?

 

[Metroyet]

Glad ALPA is servicing you so well, better than they serviced us, but you sound like neener, neener, neener, I got mine, ha, ha, ha. Otherwise, I'm not sure what is your point. ALPA obviously negotiated your merger contract better than ours. One neat package, including seniority list in less than a year. That either reflects poorly on ALPA's representation of us or shows how difficult it is to deal with our management.

You've got to be kidding. The reason "ALPA" didn't serve you well is the same reason USAPA is a failure. You, the East pilot. The reason Delta has a decent contract and a single seniority list is because one side didn't usurp the CBA for illegal purposes and blatantly stonewall negotiations. They understood what "final and binding" meant. To pretend that the East pilots had nothing to do with a delay in contract negotiations is a flat out lie. You guys had your little hissy fit and stopped showing up. Newsflash!! Your management is NO WORSE than any other, (except SWA). Every airline hates it's pilots. Was Wolf/Gangwal a love fest? It's up to the pilot group to gain any improvements and that's done through unity. Alaska pilots made significant contractual gains last year during the worst recession since the Great Depression. They were unified. Their management team is just as pilot hostile as any other. USAPA on it's best day, couldn't dream of getting that kind of unity. 40% of the pilot group wants to slit USAPAs throat...where does that get you? Nowhere.

The only way to start moving away from that is to drop the senseless, immaturely spiteful C18 lawsuit, drop this futile Nic. fight after the loss in the 9th, and start treating the West like colleagues, not red headed step children that deserve to be beat into submission. Nothing about this reflects poorly of ALPAs representation to the East, quite the opposite. ALPA tried everything they could to force the West to capitulate their legal rights to appease you guys. ALPA bent over backwards for you but again, you don't see that. See, it really doesn't matter what the name of the office door is as far as a CBA is concerned. The common denominator is the East pilots. Have you ever known somebody that constantly has a black cloud over them? They usually whine on and on about how bad their luck is...they never see that it's their own decisions that create that ever-present black cloud.

The East pilots are a macro version of that guy. Of course, I doubt you'll see that. The myopia is chronic, unbending and total.

 

[oscarjazz]

Glad ALPA is servicing you so well, better than they serviced us, but you sound like neener, neener, neener, I got mine, ha, ha, ha. Otherwise, I'm not sure what is your point. ALPA obviously negotiated your merger contract better than ours. One neat package, including seniority list in less than a year. That either reflects poorly on ALPA's representation of us or shows how difficult it is to deal with our management. Either case, that was long before USAPA. Jabs only incite non-productive responses, so I won't pass on any got-yas. About snap back, if we lose in arbitration, ALPA better re-examine its concessionary contract policy section or learn better negotiations, because ALPA wrote our LOA93/84. Any property with time-limited concessions will have that precedent to deal with in the future. No one will ever sign one again. Also, you can't have it both ways, we either get the pay raise and the 3% raises going forward or we get neither. They were both part of the same LOA 93 section.
Deep wounds? We're not exactly split 50/50. Maybe 6 years from now we'll be, but now its more like 66/33, and we're mainly split on NIC. ALPA isn't going to get back on property any time soon. NIC/Addington will be resolved soon in court. For all its accused faults, absent the NIC debate, USAPA's got great cooperation and improved unity with West pilots. The recent west additions to the committees and AOL founder Ferguson as a new BPR show so. If we were split, we'd have typical ALPA recalls and roll-call votes. Most votes have been near-unanimous, with little dissent or fighting in the leadership. The BPR has been hands-off in not allowing any actions or votes involving NIC, pending appeal. So all this deep wounds is just nonsense from someone outside who posts here for who knows why.
The pension investigation is yielding Congressional and legal interest. This is something ALPA refused to persue. We're beginning to see why.
One last thing (not refering to you), I take offense to insults one West pilot continues to make to one of our own who is fighting a courageous battle against cancer. It's not the first time we've seen that kind of talk. Cheap shots against someone who is in no position to fight back right now. Its a very strainge mindset.

First, I am not trying to get into an ALPA vs. USAPA debate. In my opinion, it is better for ALPA that you stay independent until you finally solve all your problems. If you came back to ALPA you would bring a host of bills that the rest of us would have to pay.

I apologize if it seems like I am trying to play neener, neener. My intent was to try to show how two pilot groups that can get over their seniority issues and work towards contractual gains can fare better than your case. I truly think this ill fated attempt to overthrow legally binding arbitration is just a waste of time and effort. The heavy handed tactics used have been a little over the top. It is difficult to see a group that has suffered so much, continue to suffer because of a smooth talking lawyer that has lead you down a dead end.

I truly wish that good things come to pass for all of your pilots, East and West. If USAPA is trying making that happen, then great. I don't so how pursuing this legal case accomplishes that goal. I also don't see how this RICO law suit does anything. If USAPA truly wants to heal wounds, they would announce the end of that case yesterday.

 

[cleardirect]

It doesn't really matter how long the company delays, delays, delays. If the arbitrator rules that the LOA 93 pay rates do indeed expire on December 31, 2009, there will be back pay owed starting January 1, 2010. Might make for one awesome lump sum restitution, especially if the company delays, delays, delays.

And we will soon know just how confident the company is that the LOA 93 pay rates continue indefinitely. If they do delay, delay, delay, it simply means they don't want to face facts and they know they are on shaky ground. If they are fully confident of their position, they will get right to it and get it over with. Should be an interesting couple of months (not like we've had any shortage of those in the last 15 years.)

I believe that the arbitration is scheduled for Feb. Soon enough for you? So sometime about April, May we should all know if usapa can really read contracts or not. T/A 8 showed some shaky ground. Just about the same time frame to hear from the ninth circuit, it could turn into a really bad spring for the east. No contract, no DOH, no snap back, no growth, no respect, no union.

It appears that the company does not want to delay on this they want an answer so the east will finally move on from the various fantasies.

With confidence like this I suggest buying that new bigger boat and a vacation home right now to beat the crowd. But that lump sum may be a payment not a check.

 

[cleardirect]

First, I am not trying to get into an ALPA vs. USAPA debate. In my opinion, it is better for ALPA that you stay independent until you finally solve all your problems. If you came back to ALPA you would bring a host of bills that the rest of us would have to pay.

I apologize if it seems like I am trying to play neener, neener. My intent was to try to show how two pilot groups that can get over their seniority issues and work towards contractual gains can fare better than your case. I truly think this ill fated attempt to overthrow legally binding arbitration is just a waste of time and effort. The heavy handed tactics used have been a little over the top. It is difficult to see a group that has suffered so much, continue to suffer because of a smooth talking lawyer that has lead you down a dead end.

I truly wish that good things come to pass for all of your pilots, East and West. If USAPA is trying making that happen, then great. I don't so how pursuing this legal case accomplishes that goal. I also don't see how this RICO law suit does anything. If USAPA truly wants to heal wounds, they would announce the end of that case yesterday.

I rise in support of your statement. Well said.

 

[OldpropGuy]

It doesn't really matter how long the company delays, delays, delays. If the arbitrator rules that the LOA 93 pay rates do indeed expire on December 31, 2009, there will be back pay owed starting January 1, 2010. Might make for one awesome lump sum restitution, especially if the company delays, delays, delays.

I haven't been on here in ages, but had to lurk and see what was going on. I see it's the same old me, me, me rant.

The ironic thing is that you chose to say, "If the arbitrator rules ..."
That's amazing, now it suddenly matters what an arbitrator decides?

You guys are unreal, even to us semi-outsiders! I'm back out of here. Sorry, I just couldn't stay quiet on this one!

Good luck to all and Happy Holidays!

 

[Eastisleast]

"It is difficult to see a group that has suffered so much, continue to suffer because of a smooth talking lawyer that has lead you down a dead end.

I truly wish that good things come to pass for all of your pilots, East and West. If USAPA is trying making that happen, then great. I don't so how pursuing this legal case accomplishes that goal. I also don't see how this RICO law suit does anything. If USAPA truly wants to heal wounds, they would announce the end of that case yesterday"

AMEN brother!!