US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[Richard]

OK,

Another week another pilots thread...and as the title above suggests, you need to keep on topic, and remain civil to each other.

There will be no more warnings or discussions...posts containing ANY personal attacks, comments, insults, name calling or flame bait will be deleted without comment and the poster suspended as warranted.

ALSO--- You may NOT post emails or messages from other sources, ESPECIALLY those intended for a specific group, and NOT intended for the general public.

Thank you.

Play nice now....

 

[signals]

People are discussing a possible US-UAL merger. If this goes through, does it bother USAPA that ALPA(rules) will outnumber them by at least 3 to 1? Seeing that USAPA is a renegade union, can't we all just get along? Cornfield? Totally worth it!

 

[captainJack]

People are discussing a possible US-UAL merger. If this goes through, does it bother USAPA that ALPA(rules) will outnumber them by at least 3 to 1? Seeing that USAPA is a renegade union, can't we all just get along? Cornfield? Totally worth it!

Some of us think ALPA is the renegade. Like a Larry Taylor run country. Blood diamonds and all.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

People are discussing a possible US-UAL merger. If this goes through, does it bother USAPA that ALPA(rules) will outnumber them by at least 3 to 1? Seeing that USAPA is a renegade union, can't we all just get along? Cornfield? Totally worth it!

Why on earth do you think that the duly elected USAPA is a "renegade union"?? Where were you in April of last year? :blink: If anything, ALPA is the renegade union! It is a collection of incestuous power mongers who would sell their own mothers for their own personal gain. What has ALPA done for any pilot lately? Pensions! Now where did I put mine???

 

[spike99]

Thank you for making the same point again.

So will the east agree to this position? Will usapa go to the company and refuse to let the east fly the flights from PHX to Jamica just announced? As you say you only wanted what you brought to the merger. Did any of you have the expectation to fly from PHX to Jamica?

How about backing that attitude up with a little action and integrity. All east pilots refuse to do the flights. Demand the west crews do it.

Exactly how many flights was the west flying from PHX to Jamaica before? If the answer is zero, I quess we'll just keep living with the East attrition and LOA 93. This would be the same LOA 93 and pay rates, the West demanded the company maintain for their East bretheren. Unfortunately for the West, it makes it much more economical for the East to fly any new routes the company decides to open. Exactly whose fault is that?

 

[JetMonkey]

Exactly how many flights was the west flying from PHX to Jamaica before? If the answer is zero, I quess we'll just keep living with the East attrition and LOA 93. This would be the same LOA 93 and pay rates, the West demanded the company maintain for their East bretheren. Unfortunately for the West, it makes it much more economical for the East to fly any new routes the company decides to open. Exactly whose fault is that?

Your kidding right? The west decided you all stay on LOA 93??? Who pulled out of joint negotiations? If I may quote you sir, "Exactly whose fault is that?"

 

[exB717Flyer]

(EastUS @ Aug 5 2009, 07:30 PM) *
So far...there's been absolutely ZERO viable, or even half-azzed attempts at answering the basic, seemingly very reasonable question = "What person, in their even remotely right mind, would see ANY benefits to caving in and bending over for the nic obscenity at the present time?

More pay and better work rules. Some pilots actually desire these things.

 

[luvn737s]

Exactly how many flights was the west flying from PHX to Jamaica before? If the answer is zero, I quess we'll just keep living with the East attrition and LOA 93. This would be the same LOA 93 and pay rates, the West demanded the company maintain for their East bretheren. Unfortunately for the West, it makes it much more economical for the East to fly any new routes the company decides to open. Exactly whose fault is that?

The east rates are lower but they are so much less productive that the costs are higher as evidenced by the much higher CASM post merger vs AWA.

 

[spike99]

People are discussing a possible US-UAL merger. If this goes through, does it bother USAPA that ALPA(rules) will outnumber them by at least 3 to 1? Seeing that USAPA is a renegade union, can't we all just get along? Cornfield? Totally worth it!

It does'nt matter if UAL is ALPA. New Federal Law would dictate the merger policy, not the ALPA policy/guidelines/whatever ALPA needs them to be directives to keep the big companies happy procedures. And while we're on the subject, if the ALPA Nic proposal (which was never ratified by both independent parties as required by the ALPA merger T/A) would simply become moot, why would the East care. I've seen many posts where the West has touted Wake's decision would mandate the use of the Nic, I'm not so sure. Of course that sticky joint ratification of the list, was another thing Judge Wake seemed to dismiss. In addition, I'd quess the West would support none of their furloughed members be considered as part of the active list, since that is their position with concerns for the Nic.

 

[spike99]

The east rates are lower but they are so much less productive that the costs are higher as evidenced by the much higher CASM post merger vs AWA.

I see you didn't actually answer the question. I'd also like to see your breakdown of the CASM between the East and West. I don't believe you can distinguish the difference in any actual company documentation. The high cost of an ineffectual management team is borne by all equally.

 

[spike99]

Your kidding right? The west decided you all stay on LOA 93??? Who pulled out of joint negotiations? If I may quote you sir, "Exactly whose fault is that?"

Did or did not the West MEC demand the East pay rates not be brought up to parity with the West rates? Have not numerous West posters espoused that "YOU can live on LOA 93" battle cry? So you can take the "Exactly whose fault is that" qoute in whichever context you'd like. We will, and we'll continue to benefit from new routes, and East attrition. Although we didn't have the insight to get hired by the lowest paid/worst compensated carrier in the industry, we have had had ample opportunity to learn patience/perseverance after being kicked in the stomach by numerous management teams.

 

[cleardirect]

It does'nt matter if UAL is ALPA. New Federal Law would dictate the merger policy, not the ALPA policy/guidelines/whatever ALPA needs them to be directives to keep the big companies happy procedures. And while we're on the subject, if the ALPA Nic proposal (which was never ratified by both independent parties as required by the ALPA merger T/A) would simply become moot, why would the East care. I've seen many posts where the West has touted Wake's decision would mandate the use of the Nic, I'm not so sure. Of course that sticky joint ratification of the list, was another thing Judge Wake seemed to dismiss. In addition, I'd quess the West would support none of their furloughed members be considered as part of the active list, since that is their position with concerns for the Nic.

The question that no one can anwser is timing. If we merged with UAL would it be a representational election before or after the integration?

If it is before. Then it would be ALPA merger policy. If it is after then A/M arbitration. Either way the Nicolau stands. That will be the list used for integration.

Read the findings of fact. It state clearly that any successor union will use the Nicolau. If it is unclear. Judge Wake retains juristiction. We go back to the judge and he modifies the injunction to include any merger.

But the Nicolau will not become moot.

Before the argument gets started. Please point to the part of A/M that says it uses DOH? It is not there.

Yes the usapa contitution requires DOH. But that would be using the Nicolau. Eventually arbitration. We know how that can turn out. Arbitration using ALPA or arbitration using A/M. I would guess very close if not the same either way.

 

[spike99]

The question that no one can anwser is timing. If we merged with UAL would it be a representational election before or after the integration?

If it is before. Then it would be ALPA merger policy. If it is after then A/M arbitration. Either way the Nicolau stands. That will be the list used for integration.

Read the findings of fact. It state clearly that any successor union will use the Nicolau. If it is unclear. Judge Wake retains juristiction. We go back to the judge and he modifies the injunction to include any merger.

But the Nicolau will not become moot.

Before the argument gets started. Please point to the part of A/M that says it uses DOH? It is not there.

Yes the usapa contitution requires DOH. But that would be using the Nicolau. Eventually arbitration. We know how that can turn out. Arbitration using ALPA or arbitration using A/M. I would guess very close if not the same either way.

I don't believe their would be any mechanism for a representational election once a merger is announced. There are currently two seperate unions and that's the way it would stay pending the integration, unless ALPA is voted back prior to a merger. Zero chance of this happening in my opinion.

Successor union does not state to be used in a new merger. I believe it is dealing with a new union if it is voted onto the current property before a joint contract is reached. Therefore I do not believe the Nic has to be used as the starting position for future mergers before it is actually imbedded in an actual contract.

You can say the arbitration will be similar, how do you think the West furloughed pilots would like it to go, just like the Nic?

 

[hp_fa]

Let's do a hypothetical and assume solely for the purpose of this discussion that UA wants to merge with US. Let's also assume that UA's pilots have concerns over any such menrger, well they would have a lot of concerns, but the main one is the current standing of the Nicolau and USAPA mess and they signal to UA that they want something more concrete than the current situation. UA communicates this concern to US.

US now has a problem. They want the hypothetical merger but are unsure how to address this concern. They have been dismissed from the lawsuit and now lack standing to bring anything before the Court, but at the same time the Court has shown sympathy for the rights of the company to continue in business and to make legitimate business decisions. The Court is also restricted in its jurisdiction of the case while it is on appeal to issues surrounding the permanent injunction and the application for attorneys fees.

Normally I would think that the non-party company would simply ask for a confidentiality agreement from the union and then ask the union to present the court with an in camera proceeding (essentially a secret proceeding) and present a sworn affidavit from the company explaining the problem and asking for the Court's intervention to attempt to clear the issue. However, USAPA would not likely be inclined to do so since it has little to gain and much to lose. The Addington plaintiffs might be more receptive and they have standing before the Court, but just exactly who would the company seek a confidentiality agreement from and how would that agreement be as binding as it normally would be against a company bargaining agent? Add to that the fact that if it became known that the Court was dealing with an in camera issue that speculation would be rife and the "quiet period" before a major transaction would be blown to hell.

So, does anyone want to play the hypothetical game?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Why on earth do you think that the duly elected USAPA is a "renegade union"?? Where were you in April of last year? :blink: If anything, ALPA is the renegade union! It is a collection of incestuous power mongers who would sell their own mothers for their own personal gain. What has ALPA done for any pilot lately? Pensions! Now where did I put mine???

RICO

237 grand to try to bury 18 individual pilots for trumped up, phony charges. All in order to frighten one or more to bite off on an attempted coerced false confession, in order to drain resources away from west pilots therefore rendering them unable to bring forth a DFR suit. If that isn't renegade, I don't know what is.