Virgin America seeks to challenge WN at DAL

[WorldTraveler]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/virgin-america-plans-dallas-expansion-120000182.html

we will see how this all plays out but this is definitely the most in-your-face any other low fare carrier has been with WN in any of WN's major hubs.

It very well could impact DL's ability to add service at DAL but it could also push DL towards a Virgin América acquisition and/or make it easier for DL to add flights of its own from DFW.

Either way, AA and WN will see alot more competition from N. Texas.

 

[700UW]

You mean the market that DL ran from?

 

[swamt]

This may interfere with our bet WT.  Now that VA has posted why they need them and what they will do with them etc...  VA (I believe) is considered a LCC, therefore, I believe they will be given more weight than DL.  Like I said before,  if VA was to ask for them, they would be the biggest competitor, for the gates, against SWA.  They are even claiming to pull out of DFW, and this would completely restrict any further growth in N. Tx. to only 2 gates and very limited flights.  Hopefully SWA's reasons will prevail to the city of Dallas who will be making the decision on who will receive the gates and the DOJ will approve as long as all the anti-trust laws were followed.  SWA's home town city for the past 43 years plus, SWA history with keeping Dallas workers employed and keeping the airport open (the only carrier known for this), hopefully will prevail more positive to the city of Dallas.  However I will say this, VA being a LCC has some very convincing arguments on why they should be allowed to come in, more so than DL by a long shot.
 
WT, to be fair, if SWA does not get the gates, maybe the city will throw their hands up and say, screw it, DL you get one gate, and VA you get the other one.  You never know.    Wonder if we will hear of any more airlines putting in for the 2 gates at LF.  This will get very interesting...

 

[WorldTraveler]

our bet is still valid. If you are right, I'm paying if you will send an address. If not, I will absolutely acknowledge it here.

The real BET is in the marketplace and WN will NOT have the market at DAL to itself like Mr. Kelly has tried to convince you WN peeps that he would. Shame that WN will have to compete.

And it also means that N. Texas will finally be thrust open to alot more carriers, breaking the duopoly that has existed between AA and WN for decades.



I'm still hoping that DL will challenge the WA and all of its closed door revisions that have served to limit competition and not promote it.

DL was flying to DAL long before WN was a twinkle in whats-his-face's eye.

Let VX make the argument that they should fly to DAL based on low fares... that is precisely the argument that DL will challenge that the US government and any state government CANNOT use in decisions regarding access to the interstate aviation transportation system.

It is also possible that DL could revise its plans and put in mainline aircraft. DL's schedule already includes more flights than VX'.

 

[swamt]

It does not matter that DL has posted more flights than VX. What matters is which airline meets the DOJ's requirements for the divested gates at LF.  And VX overwhelmingly meets the requirements.  If VX wins said gates, then I predict a huge fare war at LF in the near future. 
GK has never told us employees that we would be the only airline to operate out of LF as you have suggested, NEVER.
You can hope that DL challenges the W/A all you want but they will be wasting their money and time.
Don't care that that DL was flying to Dallas before the twinkle.
DL will not change their mind on using mainline A/C, they cannot afford too.  Remember your long drawn out theory of DL using the 717's against SWA after getting them?  Bring them on at LF, bring them on.  They are a money losing efficiency aircraft, so pls have DL bring them here to compete, IF, and only IF, DL is a recipient of said gates at LF.
Bottom line is,  DL has no legal reasons to argue or sue over, period...

 

[WorldTraveler]

except that you still can't accept that the DOJ's actions can be challenged and if DL chooses to do so (note, robbed that is not a given), then what the DOJ says doesn't matter.

Further, VX is adding fewer new total seats from N. Texas as a whole than DL will add to its combined DFW/DAL operation based on DL's previous schedule proposal for DAL. And it still doesn't change that DL could upgrade any of its proposed schedules to larger aircraft to increase seats. VX can't do that if they are already proposing using their 320s.

Yes, if the DOJ's stated goal, is to increase competition, DL does it better than what VX proposes.

 

[eolesen]

Again, still stuck on "competition means a single airport" when the Metromess is a two-airport market?...

DOJ might be challenged on their decision, but I doubt anyone trying to do so would be successful. Two of the largest airlines in the country trying to squeeze out a new entrant is the very type of abuse of power the anti-trust authorities are chartered with fighting.

The harsher reality of the situation is that Dave was around when Legend tried to do the niche upscale carrier at DAL trick. I'm also not entirely convinced it won't still wind up the same way, albeit with a lot less effort on the part of other carriers and thus a lot more scrutiny. VX has a great product and reputation, but making money hasn't been their strongest point.

Arguably, they'll be the third or fourth carrier in markets that AA, WN, and DL are already serving, and while UA seems to be paralyzed in general, they've remained somewhat silent on what their intentions are with the gates they hold. Perhaps they'll also look to add service to either ORD, IAD/DCA or EWR from DAL, which would push VX even further back.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm also dumbfounded that VX thinks they can go up against WN at DAL given that they have generated decent average fares at DFW against AA which has had much higher costs... but that is their decision.
 
VX is adding DCA and LGA for now - and maybe ORD down the road - but almost half of their schedule is being transferred so the notion that they are bringing a bunch of new service is not supported by their proposal.
 
UA could well decide to defend SFO from DAL which might be a big reason why VX is choosing to move, although there is obviously nothing that is stopping WN from adding DAL-SFO service.
 
However, DL issued a statement yesterday saying they welcome the opportunity to compete against VX and WN at DAL:
 
Delta welcomes the opportunity to compete with Southwest and Virgin America at Dallas Love Field and believes the airport can accommodate all three carriers. Dallas citizens will benefit from having additional travel choices from Dallas Love Field.
 
Note that DL also believes that DL's plans can coexist with VX. 
 
As much as it avoids alot of sparring on this forum, I tend to think there will be a compromise that allows DL and VX to both grow at DAL - which only makes it harder for WN to grow as large as it had planned. 

 

[swamt]

You crack me up WT.  You talk like no one can compete against SWA except for DL.   The only reason DL is at LF is because they fly the 50 seater in order to able to do that as a non-stop to ALT (W/A restrictions in effect).   Pretty sure when SWA starts their non-stops to ALT they will be in fact taking some of DL's customers as well as gaining many, many new ones.  Not all will flee the DL mileage program (or should we call it something else now).  Now WT read my lips,  I don't think DL will win both gates.  And like I already suggested, maybe, just maybe the city of Dallas will give a gate each to VX and DL so they both can operate, now that would be funny...Cheers...

 

[700UW]

US did a pretty good job of competing against WN in PHL.
 
swa, you are wasting your time with him.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, I am aware that WN walked away from PHL... they got hungry at the notion that they could push into a legacy carrier hub as they did at DEN - but WN's fuel hedge gains ran out by the time they had to compete with US.... and they walked away.  I have acknowledged US' success in pushing back WN.
 
well, duh, DL flies the 50 seater to ATL because ATL is outside of the WA perimeter and DL intends to serve ATL.
 
Please list for me the routes on which VX and WN directly compete.  And then you can add the list of markets directly competitive with other LFCs/LCCs/cheap airlines. 
 
VX, not WN, is making the decision to go up against another LFC. 
 
I never said that WN couldn't handle whatever is thrown at them.
 
I am less convinced that VX will succeed.  Their model has been to compete aggressively against AA and UA - and they have succeeded based on that model and not competing with LFCs/LCCs/cheap leisure airlines. 
 
And I am glad you are coming around to the possibility that DL and VX might both get gates at DAL which would increase competition and limit WN's ability to dominate the market. 
 
It also is not clear that UA can retain its dual gates for its current 5 or so flights/day to IAH with whoever it is that has a couple of flights also.
 
Every gate at DAL should be pushed to the max, but that also includes WN.  I have noted from the beginning that WN could easily operate close to 200 flights/day if it pushed its schedule with even one flight every hour per gate over 14 hours per day.  If the gates are really that valuable, then WN needs to be held to the same standard that it expects every other airline to use in fitting their schedule into a small number of gates.

 

[swamt]

700, Yes US did an excellent job of competing against SWA in PHL.  But according to WT only DL could successively compete against SWA.  This was exactly my point to him.  VX could very well come in and be a good competitor with SWA at LF, however, VX is a very young airline, and I am sure SWA will have fare wars just as they did with AA coming to LF once they had the blessings to fly NS to St. Louis, AA lost big time and ran away with their tails between their legs.  I am only guessing that the same will happen with VX.   Not wasting my time, because I know the end results...

 

[swamt]

WT, Do not expect DL and VX to get a gate each.  That was sarcasm by me.  DL is out at LF.  They are not even being considered.  DL will be even further off the radar at LF if another LCC not LFC but LCC airline puts in for the gates.  Your so easy.  Maybe, just maybe DL could go make some kind of a deal with Express Jet who owns, and is keeping, the other 2 gates at LF. 
BTW;  SWA will in fact maximize every gate they get at LF.  Minimum 10 flights from each gate will transpire in due time, including the 2 gates SWA is bidding on now. 
DL will be very disappointed in the final results I assure you, wait and watch, and learn...

 

[WorldTraveler]

the list of markets where VX and WN compete today includes.....? 
 
Yes, I fully expect that WN will aggressively fight against VX.  That is the whole point.  VX' costs are not near as much of an advantage in a competition with WN as they are with AA. 
 
And AA didn't run away with their tail between their legs.  They ended up with HALF of the STL and MCI market to DFW/DAL combined.  WN has the other half. 
 
AA's monopoly was broken and that is exactly what will happen in a number of key markets from N. Texas as a result of the fall of the WA.  I have repeatedly said that WN would win and significantly reshape the N. Texas market.
 
You have been focused on these two gates as if they alone would determine the outcome of the N. Texas market - and they won't. 
 
N. Texas will be a much more competitive market, WN will have a larger share of it, AA's profitability at its DFW hub will fall, and other carriers including DL will add more NET service, not just move flights from one airport to another.

 

[700UW]

Didnt DL tuck and run in DFW back in 2004?