Yes they did. Just like VX is wanting to do now which they have admitted in one of their articles that AA was too big at DFW to compete with. VX will find the very same at LF with SWA. Remember the days of the free fifth of whisky with full fare purchase or pay only half the cost of the ticket? It may not repeat itself, but the fare wars coming to LF will be huge, and all the flying public will benefit greatly...
Virgin America seeks to challenge WN at DAL
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jimntx
Veteran
Yes, but once the war is over, the self-centered American traveling public will expect the war period fares to continue. What? Pay $100 for a one-way ticket to China? Why, that's highway robbery! 
OP
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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and it is precisely those fare wars that WN wants to avoid by being able to dominate the DIL market.
When WN started flying DAL-MCI and STL, fares dropped considerable in the first year of service for both AA and WN compared to what AA had received in the past. WN's fares rose very quickly in the following years but only after they had gained half of the combined DAL/DFW to MCI and STL market.
The same thing will happen here.
The only difference is that DL is already in the DFW-LGA market and will only grow their presence regardless of what happens at DAL. DL will start DFW or DAL service to LAX which might be easier for DL if VX leaves DFW. DL will likely add other routes. B6 might well add more service even if they stay at DFW.
Either way, the N. Texas pie is going to become alot more splintered and new service will be added.
When WN started flying DAL-MCI and STL, fares dropped considerable in the first year of service for both AA and WN compared to what AA had received in the past. WN's fares rose very quickly in the following years but only after they had gained half of the combined DAL/DFW to MCI and STL market.
The same thing will happen here.
The only difference is that DL is already in the DFW-LGA market and will only grow their presence regardless of what happens at DAL. DL will start DFW or DAL service to LAX which might be easier for DL if VX leaves DFW. DL will likely add other routes. B6 might well add more service even if they stay at DFW.
Either way, the N. Texas pie is going to become alot more splintered and new service will be added.
SharoninSAT
Veteran
SOUTHWEST AIRLINES UPS ANTE IN ITS BID FOR TWO MORE DALLAS LOVE FIELD GATES...
By Terry Maxon
[email protected]
1:37 pm on March 10, 2014
Southwest Airlines saw Virgin America’s five destinations and raised it by 12.
Southwest said Monday it would begin 20 flights to 12 new nonstop cities out of Dallas Love Field in late 2014 if it gets the two gates that American Airlines must divest. In addition, it would add an unspecified number of flights to five more cities in 2015.
Those 17 cities are in addition to the 15 cities to which Southwest recently said it would begin nonstop service when a federal law on Oct. 13 restricting nonstop service out of Love Field expires.
So we’ve now got Southwest promising service to 32 cities out of Love Field to which Southwest currently does not have nonstop flights. That compares to five cities proposed by Delta Air Lines and Virgin America, which also want those two gates.
Of course, Southwest currently controls 16 of the 20 gates in the soon-to-be-finished Love Field terminal. American controls two, and ExpressJet controls two. With its push, Southwest is seeking to control 18 of the 20 gates at the Dallas airport.
The additional Southwest cities include: Charlotte, N.C.; Charleston, S.C.; Detroit; Indianapolis; Memphis; Minneapolis/St. Paul; Newark, N.J.; Philadelphia; Raleigh/Durham, N.C.; Sacramento, Calif.; San Francisco; and Seattle/Tacoma. A little math tells us that some of those cities would get only one round trip a day.
In addition, Southwest said that it would start service to five more cities out of Love Field in 2015: Boston; Oakland; Panama City Beach, Fla.; Portland, Ore.; and San Jose, Calif.
“Southwest has provided North Texas with convenient, award-winning service from Dallas Love Field for 43 years,” Southwest chairman and CEO Gary Kelly said. “We are proud of our commitment to the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. No other airline can offer the low fares, variety of destinations, and customer service that Southwest is committed to providing at Love Field.”
Virgin America last week said it would begin service to New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, San Francisco and Chicago in late 2014 and early 2015, building its schedule to 18 flights by early 2015.
Since December 2013, Delta Air Lines has been selling seats on 22 flights to five cities out of Dallas Love Field beginning in October 2014, based on the premise that it will obtain the two American Airlines gates.
The U.S. Department of Justice stated Monday that it doesn’t consider Delta “an appropriate divestiture candidate” for assets that American is divesting to settle a DOJ antitrust lawsuit. That includes the Love Field gates.
With Monday’s announcement and its prior announcement Feb. 3 on the initial 15 cities, Southwest is promising service to all the same cities that Virgin America and Delta plan to serve out of Love Field.
Southwest also released a consultants study it commission that found tremendous benefit to North Texas residents if Southwest got those other two gates.
Consultant Campbell-Hill in its study claims that giving the gates to Southwest would bring, and we quote:
– Reduction in airfares of nearly $100 per roundtrip in the new DAL markets
– 1.4 million more passengers per year flying to and from Dallas
– $210 million in fare savings annually to Dallas residents and visitors
– 365,000 new visitors to the Dallas area annually who will spend money in the local economy generating 4,700 new jobs, $214 million in annual earnings to local workers, and $559 million in local sales per year.
“No other airline can come close to generating these benefits from leasing these two gates,” the Campbell-Hill presentation states.
The study alleged that Southwest should get the gates instead of Virgin America or other low-cost carriers because, and again we quote:
• Southwest’s large Dallas presence will allow it to offer more new destinations with the two gates than other low cost carriers.
• Southwest is much more committed to Dallas than any other LCC, and has a much larger route network to offer Dallas passengers.
• Other low cost carriers would use the gates less efficiently (they all have lower gate utilization at DFW than Southwest has at DAL).
• Most low cost carriers already serve DFW to their focus cities, so serving them from DAL would be duplicative, offering little benefit to Dallas passengers.
• Virgin America is offering very little to Dallas passengers – it would serve only 3 new markets with 12 flights from Love Field. Southwest will serve 12 new markets with 20 flights.
By Terry Maxon
[email protected]
1:37 pm on March 10, 2014
Southwest Airlines saw Virgin America’s five destinations and raised it by 12.
Southwest said Monday it would begin 20 flights to 12 new nonstop cities out of Dallas Love Field in late 2014 if it gets the two gates that American Airlines must divest. In addition, it would add an unspecified number of flights to five more cities in 2015.
Those 17 cities are in addition to the 15 cities to which Southwest recently said it would begin nonstop service when a federal law on Oct. 13 restricting nonstop service out of Love Field expires.
So we’ve now got Southwest promising service to 32 cities out of Love Field to which Southwest currently does not have nonstop flights. That compares to five cities proposed by Delta Air Lines and Virgin America, which also want those two gates.
Of course, Southwest currently controls 16 of the 20 gates in the soon-to-be-finished Love Field terminal. American controls two, and ExpressJet controls two. With its push, Southwest is seeking to control 18 of the 20 gates at the Dallas airport.
The additional Southwest cities include: Charlotte, N.C.; Charleston, S.C.; Detroit; Indianapolis; Memphis; Minneapolis/St. Paul; Newark, N.J.; Philadelphia; Raleigh/Durham, N.C.; Sacramento, Calif.; San Francisco; and Seattle/Tacoma. A little math tells us that some of those cities would get only one round trip a day.
In addition, Southwest said that it would start service to five more cities out of Love Field in 2015: Boston; Oakland; Panama City Beach, Fla.; Portland, Ore.; and San Jose, Calif.
“Southwest has provided North Texas with convenient, award-winning service from Dallas Love Field for 43 years,” Southwest chairman and CEO Gary Kelly said. “We are proud of our commitment to the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. No other airline can offer the low fares, variety of destinations, and customer service that Southwest is committed to providing at Love Field.”
Virgin America last week said it would begin service to New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, San Francisco and Chicago in late 2014 and early 2015, building its schedule to 18 flights by early 2015.
Since December 2013, Delta Air Lines has been selling seats on 22 flights to five cities out of Dallas Love Field beginning in October 2014, based on the premise that it will obtain the two American Airlines gates.
The U.S. Department of Justice stated Monday that it doesn’t consider Delta “an appropriate divestiture candidate” for assets that American is divesting to settle a DOJ antitrust lawsuit. That includes the Love Field gates.
With Monday’s announcement and its prior announcement Feb. 3 on the initial 15 cities, Southwest is promising service to all the same cities that Virgin America and Delta plan to serve out of Love Field.
Southwest also released a consultants study it commission that found tremendous benefit to North Texas residents if Southwest got those other two gates.
Consultant Campbell-Hill in its study claims that giving the gates to Southwest would bring, and we quote:
– Reduction in airfares of nearly $100 per roundtrip in the new DAL markets
– 1.4 million more passengers per year flying to and from Dallas
– $210 million in fare savings annually to Dallas residents and visitors
– 365,000 new visitors to the Dallas area annually who will spend money in the local economy generating 4,700 new jobs, $214 million in annual earnings to local workers, and $559 million in local sales per year.
“No other airline can come close to generating these benefits from leasing these two gates,” the Campbell-Hill presentation states.
The study alleged that Southwest should get the gates instead of Virgin America or other low-cost carriers because, and again we quote:
• Southwest’s large Dallas presence will allow it to offer more new destinations with the two gates than other low cost carriers.
• Southwest is much more committed to Dallas than any other LCC, and has a much larger route network to offer Dallas passengers.
• Other low cost carriers would use the gates less efficiently (they all have lower gate utilization at DFW than Southwest has at DAL).
• Most low cost carriers already serve DFW to their focus cities, so serving them from DAL would be duplicative, offering little benefit to Dallas passengers.
• Virgin America is offering very little to Dallas passengers – it would serve only 3 new markets with 12 flights from Love Field. Southwest will serve 12 new markets with 20 flights.
jimntx
Veteran
Has any LCC ever survived a Southwest competitive onslaught and successfully moved in on Southwest territory? And, no I do not think that simply matching city pairs is a successful incursion. I mean same airport to same airport. Does Virgin America have the funds to run flights at a loss as long as Southwest can run flights at a loss? Just asking.
OP
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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I've raised that question multiple times but the WN fanclub doesn't want to acknowledge that the chances of an LCC competing successfully on any significant scale against WN in a secondary airport is small and hasn't even been proven.
Further, it isn't surprising that WN "ups the ante" now that they know that DL won't get the two gates so WN is now free to add service to DL and other legacy carrier hubs.
WN has never been able to successfully compete in other carrier hubs except in DEN where they still haven't won.
WN's model is to fly in the shadows and out of the reach of legacy carriers and it has been that way since Herb founded WN. He never wanted to have to compete against the big boys. Never.
TO argue that WN is an effective competitor is simply delusional.
Further, it isn't surprising that WN "ups the ante" now that they know that DL won't get the two gates so WN is now free to add service to DL and other legacy carrier hubs.
WN has never been able to successfully compete in other carrier hubs except in DEN where they still haven't won.
WN's model is to fly in the shadows and out of the reach of legacy carriers and it has been that way since Herb founded WN. He never wanted to have to compete against the big boys. Never.
TO argue that WN is an effective competitor is simply delusional.
xUT
Veteran
IMHO, as long a Branson is funding Virgin, there is no limit.jimntx said:
JFK Fleet Service
Veteran
eolesen said:
Do you really think Herb NEVER wanted to compete against the big boy airlines? Get a clue man. SWA was forced not to compete with the big boys, at least directly from same airport, here in Dallas, directly due to the stupid a$$ Wright Amendment. Your delusional claim is completely false. Try again WT. try again. You are starting to go off the deep end again because every thing I have said about Delta getting the ax at LF has come true.
Today, from an internal letter from GK, I have learned that SWA now has a better chance at receiving said gates at LF. We will wait the results. But VX is now lower on the radar to receive them...
Sharon thx for posting the article. It, as well as, the one from Terry Maxum from DMN, are two very important and informational articles explaining the differences, and leans very favorable in SWA's favor. I still can only hope we end up with these two gates, as we are the best choice for all travelers out of LF to get them, period...
Today, from an internal letter from GK, I have learned that SWA now has a better chance at receiving said gates at LF. We will wait the results. But VX is now lower on the radar to receive them...
Sharon thx for posting the article. It, as well as, the one from Terry Maxum from DMN, are two very important and informational articles explaining the differences, and leans very favorable in SWA's favor. I still can only hope we end up with these two gates, as we are the best choice for all travelers out of LF to get them, period...
OP
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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eolesen said:
I have repeatedly said that WN can be successful in the metroplex by flying from DAL instead of DFW. You have tried 30 ways to Sunday to argue that it isn't.
Take a rest. If AA wasn't worried about WN's ability to compete from DAL, the whole WA wouldn't have happened.
Apparently Bob didn't give you the whole scoop before he left and sent you packing. You don't have an AA ID anymore do you?
Terry Maxon put out an article this morning explaining how SWA is a much better candidate in all areas of compare. SWA will be adding 12 "new" destinations compared to 5 each by Dl and VX. SWA will also provide more passengers than either of the other two. Which in turn will bring in more revenue and employees for the city of Dallas and the airport. SWA also would be able to add more employees due to the larger amount of flights out of each gate, and not just the 2 gates up for grabs, SWA will be adding numerous employees in all areas for the added flights at all the other gates when W/A is gone. What would be very interesting is if they chose to give each a gate (SWA and VX) since Delta is out of it now. Still wondering if we might see another applicant applying though...
OP
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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It was a given that WN would start with the largest destination so each additional flight would be to smaller destinations with less flights, making it possible to serve more destinations.
Other airlines would have brought revenue to the airport.
the issue still remains when probably more than if someone chooses to challenge the legality of the WA and its revisions. There were lots of questions asked in 2006 but they were pushed out of the way by the Texas delegation.
there is no legal basis for all of the gates at any US airport to be locked up permanently denying access to other carriers or for certain carriers solely based on their business model from being prohibited from serving an airport.
It is a question of when, not if, and by whom.
Other airlines would have brought revenue to the airport.
the issue still remains when probably more than if someone chooses to challenge the legality of the WA and its revisions. There were lots of questions asked in 2006 but they were pushed out of the way by the Texas delegation.
there is no legal basis for all of the gates at any US airport to be locked up permanently denying access to other carriers or for certain carriers solely based on their business model from being prohibited from serving an airport.
It is a question of when, not if, and by whom.
jimntx
Veteran
Could you guys please take the childish sniping off-line? There is an email feature on airlineforums where everything said for the past two pages--that has in no way advanced the Love Field gates discussion--could be sniped back and forth to each other without boring the rest of us to tears.
You all remind me of those childhood arguments that went: "You stink." "No, you stink." "Well, you stink more." "Oh yeah. You stink worse than anybody."
You all remind me of those childhood arguments that went: "You stink." "No, you stink." "Well, you stink more." "Oh yeah. You stink worse than anybody."
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
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Actually, there have only been three revisions to the Wright Amendment.WorldTraveler said:
1997, when KS, AL, and MS were added to the perimeter, thanks to Sen. Shelby of AL.
2005, when MO was added, thanks to Sen. Bond of MO.
2006, when the sunset perimeters were added, as well as the agreement to cap the number of gates and the nature of operations to domestic-only.
Three doesn't equal "umpteen" in anyone else's grounded reality.
Just so there's no doubt... I've been a proponent on the forums of eliminating it since 2005, when I was still employed by AMR. Some of us *are* capable of divorcing our personal opinions from that of our current and former employers...
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/15386-good-news-for-aa/#entry200194
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