WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
I'm not being condescending, Kevin.
You and he decided you were going to attempt to discredit me by arguing terminology that you didn't even use correctly.
I am more than happy to share what I know but when you and he decide to whip up a peer frenzy to argue every point that I say about concepts that I understand very well, then you shouldn't be surprised that the board denigrates into an overheated pissing match.
I specifically used the term "Network carrier" to refer to DL's position in all large Florida cities except for MIA.
700 came back and used all carriers while you two went on trying to argue that my terminology was wrong.
Yes, 700s claim is correct but he came back with a statistic that is different from what I originally cited, and which was and still remains correct.
It is no different from him arguing that US outsources based on one statistic while refusing to acknowledge that the statistic he has chosen to use is not industry accepted and based on industry accepted classifications US has the highest rate of overall maintenance outsourcing among US NETWORK carriers.
It also is no different from him arguing that pensions does not include defined contribution plans when the Dept. of Labor and IRS specifically use the term pensions to include DC plans.
He is either being argumentative or doesn't know what he is talking about. There are plenty of indications that BOTH are correct.
If you and a whole lot of other people would get past your pride that someone else might actually know something you don't, then we could have a civil conversation around here.
And, on a somewhat cooler note, yes, Kev, WN and DL are both major airlines. DL is categorized as a network airline (the term legacy is sometimes used) along with AA, AS, UA, and US while low cost carrier includes WN, B6, F9, and others.
Specific to the point that 700 tried to raise regarding the reduction of CVG, MEM, and DFW, DL from a network standpoint does not care near as much about how many passengers pass THRU the airport as it does about how much revenue DL collects from local revenue passengers. DL has retained its relative market position in all of those hubs and former hubs as well as in the Florida cities EVEN THOUGH it has downsized its operations in all of them.
It also is noteworthy that DL is the largest NETWORK carrier in all of its hubs and in most cases it is also the largest carrier in its hubs using all categories of airlines.
DL's ability to gain a revenue advantage is directly related to its strength in its hubs. DL gained a 112% domestic revenue advantage in the most recent quarter because of its hub strength.
WN understands the concept which is why it does not like to compete directly against other carriers in its largest markets.
US understands the concept which is why it has focused the bulk of its revenue in the east around CLT, PHL, and DCA - cities where it also says it has the highest profit margin.
AA and UA both have major hubs where they are not the largest carrier.
AA/US will lose significant amounts of pricing power in DCA and DFW as a result of the fall of the WA - the point I have been making for months but everyone here wants to argue against.
Size absolutely translates into pricing power and the DOJ was rightly concerned about market concentration leading to a lack of pricing control. Even when the country is divided between 4 large airlines, each one will have strength markets in which they can price based on strength; there are other places where they are at a pricing disadvantage.
Regardless of whether we are talking about network or low cost airlines, there is pricing strength that comes from higher levels of market share.
It isn't a surprise that DL, US, and WN have had some of the stronger domestic RASM improvement numbers; they have the strongest positions in their major markets.
Further, DL builds hubs around cities which have strong enough local demand to support the volume of flights that are necessary to compete in the region in which the city exists and connects spokes to those hubs including in markets such as MDW which other NETWORK carriers choose not to serve but which DL has connected to its largest hubs.
It is precisely because DL intends to be the largest NETWORK airline in as many markets as possible, that it is pursuing service at DAL just as it gains a revenue advantage in markets such as CHI-DTW where DL serves both Chicago airports.
I would very much like to have a
You and he decided you were going to attempt to discredit me by arguing terminology that you didn't even use correctly.
I am more than happy to share what I know but when you and he decide to whip up a peer frenzy to argue every point that I say about concepts that I understand very well, then you shouldn't be surprised that the board denigrates into an overheated pissing match.
I specifically used the term "Network carrier" to refer to DL's position in all large Florida cities except for MIA.
700 came back and used all carriers while you two went on trying to argue that my terminology was wrong.
Yes, 700s claim is correct but he came back with a statistic that is different from what I originally cited, and which was and still remains correct.
It is no different from him arguing that US outsources based on one statistic while refusing to acknowledge that the statistic he has chosen to use is not industry accepted and based on industry accepted classifications US has the highest rate of overall maintenance outsourcing among US NETWORK carriers.
It also is no different from him arguing that pensions does not include defined contribution plans when the Dept. of Labor and IRS specifically use the term pensions to include DC plans.
He is either being argumentative or doesn't know what he is talking about. There are plenty of indications that BOTH are correct.
If you and a whole lot of other people would get past your pride that someone else might actually know something you don't, then we could have a civil conversation around here.
And, on a somewhat cooler note, yes, Kev, WN and DL are both major airlines. DL is categorized as a network airline (the term legacy is sometimes used) along with AA, AS, UA, and US while low cost carrier includes WN, B6, F9, and others.
Specific to the point that 700 tried to raise regarding the reduction of CVG, MEM, and DFW, DL from a network standpoint does not care near as much about how many passengers pass THRU the airport as it does about how much revenue DL collects from local revenue passengers. DL has retained its relative market position in all of those hubs and former hubs as well as in the Florida cities EVEN THOUGH it has downsized its operations in all of them.
It also is noteworthy that DL is the largest NETWORK carrier in all of its hubs and in most cases it is also the largest carrier in its hubs using all categories of airlines.
DL's ability to gain a revenue advantage is directly related to its strength in its hubs. DL gained a 112% domestic revenue advantage in the most recent quarter because of its hub strength.
WN understands the concept which is why it does not like to compete directly against other carriers in its largest markets.
US understands the concept which is why it has focused the bulk of its revenue in the east around CLT, PHL, and DCA - cities where it also says it has the highest profit margin.
AA and UA both have major hubs where they are not the largest carrier.
AA/US will lose significant amounts of pricing power in DCA and DFW as a result of the fall of the WA - the point I have been making for months but everyone here wants to argue against.
Size absolutely translates into pricing power and the DOJ was rightly concerned about market concentration leading to a lack of pricing control. Even when the country is divided between 4 large airlines, each one will have strength markets in which they can price based on strength; there are other places where they are at a pricing disadvantage.
Regardless of whether we are talking about network or low cost airlines, there is pricing strength that comes from higher levels of market share.
It isn't a surprise that DL, US, and WN have had some of the stronger domestic RASM improvement numbers; they have the strongest positions in their major markets.
Further, DL builds hubs around cities which have strong enough local demand to support the volume of flights that are necessary to compete in the region in which the city exists and connects spokes to those hubs including in markets such as MDW which other NETWORK carriers choose not to serve but which DL has connected to its largest hubs.
It is precisely because DL intends to be the largest NETWORK airline in as many markets as possible, that it is pursuing service at DAL just as it gains a revenue advantage in markets such as CHI-DTW where DL serves both Chicago airports.
I would very much like to have a
