You actually just cemented what I have been saying all this time. "you were in the meeting with all the DFL 142 leadership" Yea all the folks from the IAM told you so, so you just believe them. This is exactly what you and the IAM wants the membership to believe as well. Now, I have provided proof that the NMB has no authority or jurisdiction to conduct the election we are talking about, in writing from the NMB themselves. I told everyone out here this would be your response and why. You are a very decietfull person as you know what the real outcome will be----It will be the same as the previous alliance between the CWA and IBT which the NMB DID NOT conduct the election as you indicated, they merely certified the results, just like they will with this alliance vote coming forth with the TWU and IAM. Just admit it WT, you have been exposed. Now carry on...
Why the DOJ Wants to Clip Delta's Wings
- Thread starter traderjake
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eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Rolling back the clock a few minutes on WT's argument about what is a network carrier, and what isn't...
There are certain behaviors and methods which network carriers use, which point to point LFC's and LCC's don't.
Two of those indicators are the use of network connection optimization software, and implementing O&D revenue management.
In 2013, WN implemented O&D with PROS, who offers one of the leading solutions used right now by network airlines. They've been using Seabury's solution for network optimization since before the Airtran merger was announced.
You can try to draw a distinction between network airlines and other airlines to fit whatever statistic you're trying to spin, but the fact is that WN's infrastructure has been upgraded to that of the network carriers over the past four years...
Their pricing behavior matches that of the network carriers. When's the last time they derailed a fare hike?...
Their revenue management behavior matches that of the network carriers. O&D comes at a huge price to implement, and doesn't offer any real advantages to a point to point carrier.
Their schedule building and optimization for connection revenue matches that of the network carriers.
Just about the only appreciable behavior they don't match is their fare rules and their ancillary fee structure.
If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a bit specious to try and call it anything else.
You can try to segment the airlines any way you want to, but at the end of the day, it's all about passengers boarded and revenue earned. Those are the two metrics that the suppliers look at when determining the net worth of an airline as a customer.
Governments? They tend to be ten years behind the times when it comes to just about anything... They still try to report canceled flights and mishandled bags for regional carriers as though they really have any ability to control what their major partner does.
There are certain behaviors and methods which network carriers use, which point to point LFC's and LCC's don't.
Two of those indicators are the use of network connection optimization software, and implementing O&D revenue management.
In 2013, WN implemented O&D with PROS, who offers one of the leading solutions used right now by network airlines. They've been using Seabury's solution for network optimization since before the Airtran merger was announced.
You can try to draw a distinction between network airlines and other airlines to fit whatever statistic you're trying to spin, but the fact is that WN's infrastructure has been upgraded to that of the network carriers over the past four years...
Their pricing behavior matches that of the network carriers. When's the last time they derailed a fare hike?...
Their revenue management behavior matches that of the network carriers. O&D comes at a huge price to implement, and doesn't offer any real advantages to a point to point carrier.
Their schedule building and optimization for connection revenue matches that of the network carriers.
Just about the only appreciable behavior they don't match is their fare rules and their ancillary fee structure.
If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a bit specious to try and call it anything else.
You can try to segment the airlines any way you want to, but at the end of the day, it's all about passengers boarded and revenue earned. Those are the two metrics that the suppliers look at when determining the net worth of an airline as a customer.
Governments? They tend to be ten years behind the times when it comes to just about anything... They still try to report canceled flights and mishandled bags for regional carriers as though they really have any ability to control what their major partner does.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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E,
Thanks for your information on WN. I don’t disagree with it.
You have done more to prove that WN isn’t an upstart or novice airline but one that has sophisticated technology and uses practices just like the rest of the industry.
WN is hardly the kind of airline that needs help in breaking into markets like DCA and LGA because they didn’t realize 40 years ago the value of serving high profile business markets. It isn’t everyone else’s job including the federal government’s to provide WN with preferential terms because they failed to engage in strategic planning that had them grow beyond their roots outside of key business markets.
Your information also doesn’t change that I used the term “network carrier” accurately and in conformity with its use as defined by the US government. I didn’t say that DL was the largest airline in the top markets outside of MIA. I said that DL was the top network carrier and I have said very explicitly why I used that terminology.
Take your argument about reclassifying WN from a low cost carrier to a network carrier to the DOT. They don't have costs that are significantly lower than other carriers, they've been around for several decades, and yes they do move passengers around the country thru a hub and spoke system whether they want to call if that or not. You'll get no argument from me.
In the meantime, WN is considered a low cost carrier by the US DOT and I spoke about them accurately within the DOT's own terminology.
But if it makes you sleep better tonite saying that WN is the largest carrier at MCO, TPA, FLL or any other city, you go right ahead.
WN won’t gain one cent more of revenue because of that title, nor will DL lose one cent.
But thanks again for showing that WN doesn’t deserve special help because they made strategic errors that leave them collecting far less revenue per passenger from Florida and across their domestic system because they weren’t previously interested in serving the top NE business markets.
WN has more than enough resources at its disposal to acquire assets the way everyone else has: in the open marketplace where they have to compete with other carriers and not in backroom deals where they can hide behind marketing hype which has no basis in reality today.
Thanks for your information on WN. I don’t disagree with it.
You have done more to prove that WN isn’t an upstart or novice airline but one that has sophisticated technology and uses practices just like the rest of the industry.
WN is hardly the kind of airline that needs help in breaking into markets like DCA and LGA because they didn’t realize 40 years ago the value of serving high profile business markets. It isn’t everyone else’s job including the federal government’s to provide WN with preferential terms because they failed to engage in strategic planning that had them grow beyond their roots outside of key business markets.
Your information also doesn’t change that I used the term “network carrier” accurately and in conformity with its use as defined by the US government. I didn’t say that DL was the largest airline in the top markets outside of MIA. I said that DL was the top network carrier and I have said very explicitly why I used that terminology.
Take your argument about reclassifying WN from a low cost carrier to a network carrier to the DOT. They don't have costs that are significantly lower than other carriers, they've been around for several decades, and yes they do move passengers around the country thru a hub and spoke system whether they want to call if that or not. You'll get no argument from me.
In the meantime, WN is considered a low cost carrier by the US DOT and I spoke about them accurately within the DOT's own terminology.
But if it makes you sleep better tonite saying that WN is the largest carrier at MCO, TPA, FLL or any other city, you go right ahead.
WN won’t gain one cent more of revenue because of that title, nor will DL lose one cent.
But thanks again for showing that WN doesn’t deserve special help because they made strategic errors that leave them collecting far less revenue per passenger from Florida and across their domestic system because they weren’t previously interested in serving the top NE business markets.
WN has more than enough resources at its disposal to acquire assets the way everyone else has: in the open marketplace where they have to compete with other carriers and not in backroom deals where they can hide behind marketing hype which has no basis in reality today.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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The LGA slots are the easiest part of the transaction and apparently neither DL or UA had any interest in them.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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Kev3188
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eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Got me, WT. Maybe there's a search on Regulations.gov that will uncover them.
Frankly, proving other posters wright/wrong isn't all that important to me. I don't have the same obsession as you to always be wright, nor do I really find it necessary to demand proof every time someone makes an observation or a comment I disagree with.
You might want to try that approach once in a while. It's OK not to have the last word all the time.
Frankly, proving other posters wright/wrong isn't all that important to me. I don't have the same obsession as you to always be wright, nor do I really find it necessary to demand proof every time someone makes an observation or a comment I disagree with.
You might want to try that approach once in a while. It's OK not to have the last word all the time.
LD3
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WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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I'm not out to prove people right or wrong. I do want to accurately talk about the subjects at hand.eolesen said:
You cannot choose to participate in discussions about any topic that has a true right or wrong answer and then say that you don't really care if you are right or wrong.
If you want to talk about proven wrong, then talk about topics that don't have right or wrong answers - opinions, perceptions. Just make sure that you couch those opinions as yours and not try to make them representative of a group that you do not represent.
Specific to this topic, you suggested that DL or UA's requests might have just been dismissed.
If that was the case, then you should be able to find it. Otherwise, it is nothing more than a swipe you tried to make that had no basis in fact and will be framed as such.
Given that you have consistently made statements about DL that have not been accurate, then you shouldn't be surprised that you are being challenged to provide the proof that what you say has some basis.
There is no other person on this forum that has been as quick to throw out comments about DL only to very often being proven wrong about them and it is obvious that your loyalty to AA mgmt. and my criticism of them is precisely why you have chosen to try to lash out at DL, as if AA or DL are really moved by what happens on this board.
The answer is not to hide behind "it might be there" but not to make the statement unless you have evidence that it is true.
FWAAA and Jacobin are both equally as proud of AA but they don't resort to the kinds of childish behavior you do when they are shown to be wrong. They go get more facts and come back for another round. I absolutely enjoy debating people like FWAAA, Jacobin, and even MAH. Each of them know the industry and can deal with the hard reality that you don't win every round in a debate.
You would do well to consider their style of debate while at the same time recogizing that you are treated the way you act on this board.
In this case, I have seen no evidence that DL or UA ever intended to bid on slots at LGA. Unless you can find evidence to the contrary, then that is the reason why the VX and WN are being awarded slots.
BTW, please note that in the DOJ's statement they gave preference to WN and B6 and yet VX is winning slots at LGA.
Did VX prove that the DOJ's own settlement agreement was flawed, or did B6 and WN not really want to spend the money that VX was willing to spend and thus VX' bid rose to the top?
The results of the LGA bid confirm that other carriers besides B6 and WN did succeed in the process.
Kev3188
Veteran
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