40 to 1

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Can someone explain to me why a high seniority person is treated like a day one employee when they transfer to another title group? I would like to know how this foolishness got started and why American Airlines employees continue to tolerate an archaic system designed to work against senior people. You should not be forced to do the same job your whole career because of fear of having to start your seniority completely over. This rule kills aspirations and personal growth of American Airlines employees. Why should American Airlines employees be punished for wanting to try something new?
 
I have seen this rule affect people in many ways. I have seen people get their A&P’s then stay in another department for fear of losing their seniority and by consequence their job. I have seen American Airlines hire a lot of new people right before a layoff to shut higher seniority people out of transfers. A 40 year employee should not be treated like a day one employee when he switches to another shop by either desire or circumstance. I can understand some positions require specialized training (electrician, carpenter, A&P Mechanic) but a lot of them do not.
 
I hope this post does not fall on deaf ears. I hope the membership will step up and put a stop to a foolish rule that does considerable damage to the American Airlines workforce and is really only useful as a tool for management.
 
Free yourself of this manipulation.

 

[eolesen]

Good luck with changing that.  
 
I seem to recall class/shop seniority only applying for shift bidding and furlough protection.  The 40 year person still keeps their company seniority date for pay and vacation accrual purposes.  Not certain if their company seniority also applies for vacation bidding.

 

[700UW]

Because if you worked 20 years as a flight attendant and then transfer to say the ramp, you never worked a day on the ramp and never paid dues to the union on the ramp.
 
And no one goes into the situation knowing that their 40 years dont transfer for bidding your shift, days off and classification.
 
For example I have a company hire date, an adjusted date, a date under the CBA, a Utility date and a Stores date.
 
E at US company time is used for travel, vacation accural and bidding.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I am talking about employees that fall under the TWU umbrella.
 
Company seniority does not matter during a layoff. I have seen the company hire people off the street two months before a layoff time and time again to shut transfers out of departments. So basically you have a two month employee holding a job over a 10, 20, 30 year plus employee. Color it however you want but it is wrong.

 

[Thomas Paine]

You should know the answer to that. Because that's the way AA wanted it. They would rather that you leave than stay.

The flip side is that most A&Ps had to have five years experience before they could even get hired as an A&P, they get no credit for that time, do you think they would be OK with a guy who waited till they lowered standards to jump ahead of him in seniority? So it is what it is and there is no way mechanics would vote to let Fleet guys come in and bump them down in seniority. Many resent that they get to pick their vacation with their full seniority.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

So fa la li la Lo wants a fleet service guy with 20 years who gets his A&P and bids a mechanic job in the hangar to be able to displace a 19 year mechanic? Good luck with that.

Classification seniority exists throughout the industry. It is not just a TWU thing. At NWA under the AMFA and the IAM, When a layoff came, a person could exercise seniority in his classification until it is exhausted, then can exercise to the next lower classification in which they hold seniority. As long as the employee exhausts the seniority in the higher classification first, he would retain recall rights in each classification.

We had many people who held seniority in several classifications. I held seniority in 2 classifications. I knew a couple who had Cleaner, ESE, Mechanic, Lead Mechanic, Inspector, Lead Inspector. Of course the vacation bid and non-rev priority always went by company time.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

In the 90s, the TWU decided to offer a mechanic upgrade program in Tulsa. They offered this to career cleaners, fleet service and stock clerks. These people would have never gotten their licenses on their own. In order to be an AMT up to that point one had to have gone to an A&P school, had military experience to justify taking the FAA tests or, in my case, both with the addition of 3 years experience in order to be hired by American. There were a few very lucky individuals that got hired as cleaners while they were going to A&P school and since the cleaners are title 1, they carried their seniority with them when they upgraded to AMT. If you had invested that much time and money into your qualification, then you would not like a stock clerk, cleaner or fleet guy being handed an A&P license, that they never would have gotten on their own, and then leap frogging you on the seniority list. It was bad enough we had career cleaners who took advantage of this and out bid most of us for crew chief and inspector jobs. One had so much seniority that he out bid everyone for a crew chief job as soon as he got his A&P. He had the least amount of experience of the people who bid, but he got it with his seniority. He is now an inspector and really has no idea how to do the job he is inspecting. This is not cool to those of us who paid our dues on flight lines and flight decks in the military or those who spent years working in general aviation for dirt pay to get their experience. It's bad enough that machinists and welders can bump an AMT but an AMT can't bump a machinist or welder. This is the thing that needs to be fixed. If a machinist or welder can go out to the hangar and learn the AMT job through OJT, then the reverse should be allowed as well.

 

[Vortilon]

Can someone explain to me why a high seniority person is treated like a day one employee when they transfer to another title group? I would like to know how this foolishness got started and why American Airlines employees continue to tolerate an archaic system designed to work against senior people. You should not be forced to do the same job your whole career because of fear of having to start your seniority completely over. This rule kills aspirations and personal growth of American Airlines employees. Why should American Airlines employees be punished for wanting to try something new?
 
I have seen this rule affect people in many ways. I have seen people get their A&P’s then stay in another department for fear of losing their seniority and by consequence their job. I have seen American Airlines hire a lot of new people right before a layoff to shut higher seniority people out of transfers. A 40 year employee should not be treated like a day one employee when he switches to another shop by either desire or circumstance. I can understand some positions require specialized training (electrician, carpenter, A&P Mechanic) but a lot of them do not.
 
I hope this post does not fall on deaf ears. I hope the membership will step up and put a stop to a foolish rule that does considerable damage to the American Airlines workforce and is really only useful as a tool for management.
 
Free yourself of this manipulation.

 
 
The way I always looked at that was is the only employee group that benefited from any kind of company paid for tuition - was fleet service.  There was no equivalent programs for any other employee groups at AA to receive tuition reimbursement for additional training or education.  How fair is that?  Here I was paying my student loans off for my A&P - while some FSC who the only reason he or she is working at AA is because AA called before Mcdonalds did - is getting a free tuition?  I know of guys that went into the flight department, they were forced to actually quit the company first, then reapply.  At least you hang on to your company time.  All I am saying, is it goes both ways.  If I understand you correctly, you would allow a higher seniority guy from another department bump a guy who knew what he wanted to do out of high school - got the training/education for and secured a job doing - simply because his hire on date?  I still get pissed when I see these guys use their title seniority from these cleaner type jobs that for whatever reason were in the same title group as aircraft mechanics.  You know the types, 20 years as a cleaner then 15 years in A&P school - then they want to be an aircraft maintenance crew chief.

 

[AANOTOK]

Here we go again...Mcdonalds never called, so here I am!
Some of you guys never cease to amaze me.
Now, your pedestal is so high that with your wealth of knowledge, you should be able to go above
anyone in any work group if you have more time. WOW!!
 
"SOME" of you guys really are unbelievable!

 

[Vortilon]

Here we go again...Mcdonalds never called, so here I am!
Some of you guys never cease to amaze me.
Now, your pedestal is so high that with your wealth of knowledge, you should be able to go above
anyone in any work group if you have more time. WOW!!
 
"SOME" of you guys really are unbelievable!

 
 
In a perfect world, the company would offer the opportunity to everyone - for tuition reimbursement, and advancement.  However, within the confines of our unionized system of fairness, and protection - certain barriers and limitations were set up and allowed.  I have no aspirations of going into any other work group at this time, and if I did - I would be well aware of the consequences to my seniority.  A perfect example of the stupidity set up within our system, would be the loss of seniority for an AMT to move into tech services.  There is no logic, now your most qualified to take that job in tech services are discouraged.  What does that leave you with?   As Old Guy pointed out, we don't have much as it is - and now you want to walk on us some more, and you want us to help you screw us, and be happy about it?  Sorry for your plight; however, it's a little late in the game to be rewriting the rules to suit your desires.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I used to ask at the union hall where the junior pilot upgrade program was for AMTs? that always brought a good response.

 

[AANOTOK]

 
 
In a perfect world, the company would offer the opportunity to everyone - for tuition reimbursement, and advancement.  However, within the confines of our unionized system of fairness, and protection - certain barriers and limitations were set up and allowed.  I have no aspirations of going into any other work group at this time, and if I did - I would be well aware of the consequences to my seniority.  A perfect example of the stupidity set up within our system, would be the loss of seniority for an AMT to move into tech services.  There is no logic, now your most qualified to take that job in tech services are discouraged.  What does that leave you with?   As Old Guy pointed out, we don't have much as it is - and now you want to walk on us some more, and you want us to help you screw us, and be happy about it?  Sorry for your plight; however, it's a little late in the game to be rewriting the rules to suit your desires.

Not sure what you're talking about V, I have no plights or desires. It's your ridiculous Fleet/Mcdonalds comparison and La La's asinine belief that he should take his senority to any work group. VC bidding, no problem. Using it to bid in a new title group, foolish and selfish!!

 

[Thomas Paine]

Here we go again...Mcdonalds never called, so here I am!
Some of you guys never cease to amaze me.
Now, your pedestal is so high that with your wealth of knowledge, you should be able to go above
anyone in any work group if you have more time. WOW!!
 
"SOME" of you guys really are unbelievable!

The McDonalds remark may have been unwarranted but that's not what he said. They bring up good points, the TWU never pushed to have the company pay for mechanic upgrades to pilots yet pushed for Fleet Upgrades to mechanics while at the same time transferring work over to Fleet. Then some feel that when the Fleet guys come over they should bring all their seniority. Well we all had to get experience to get the job, and we did not get credit for that, plus pay for our own schooling,  but we should step aside because 20 years later a guy who gets his school paid for by the company decides to become a mechanic and wants his seniority to carry? doesn't seem fair to the rest of the guys to me.

 

[AANOTOK]

Sorry Thomas, that's not what La La's topic opening comment states.
If that's his intention, so be it...

 

[bob@las-AA]

I like to put things bluntly without tack to best convey what it is that I'm thinking. In my station, we have a lot of FSC that came in because that city was ether outsourced or from layoff. Now I have been working with the same people for a time or two and I'm on the bottom of the seniority list in my station. I have gained the respect of all the people I work with because I work like I make top out pay. But my wages are far below that. If a person with the amount of seniority your talking about, well maybe he or she should buckle up- shut up and get their hands dirty because your never done paying dues!!!