40 to 1

[Lloyd Grey]

Good luck with changing that.  
 
I seem to recall class/shop seniority only applying for shift bidding and furlough protection.  The 40 year person still keeps their company seniority date for pay and vacation accrual purposes.  Not certain if their company seniority also applies for vacation bidding.

  Transferring from Line or OH maintenance to Tech Service is quite a pay bump, but nobody senior would want to work mids again so there's not much likelihood the senior employee would go there.

 

[BigMac]

La Li Lu Le Lo,
Not to add fuel to the fire or fan the flames but I forgot to add platers are also title 1 AMTs. Although a license is not required to wrench on A/C.. I agree with OldGuy@AAs statement. If Machinist, Welders and Platers are allowed to wrench on A/C (@AA) then A&Ps should be allowed to Machine, Weld or Plate.

 

[Vortilon]

The discussion really doesn't need to deteriorate into that. Every job is important, and everyone should be able to afford the basics off a 40 hour week. Just because we have failed to negotiate a fair return for the value we bring that's no reason to start to belittle what others do. Our condition is our failure, management doesn't pay us less so they can pay baggage handlers more, that whole pie thing is their BS creation that corrupt union bought into and sold the membership, they want to pay all of us less so they can have a lot more for themselves, and they have been doing pretty much been doing that, don't get fooled into thinking that just because they aren't showing big profits that there aren't people making big money off our labor. We need to look at Fleet as allies, not opponents.

 
 
I wish I could share your optimism.  The TWU is to blame.  Management negotiates with the TWU, then the TWU decides how to distribute who gets what and when.  Naturally the largest title group was getting the lions share of the pot, and for a very long time - fleet service was that title group.  Everything was tilted to benefit fleet service eg. minimum station staffing - none for aircraft maintenance.  It wasn't just money, it was programs and opportunity as well.  For the longest time, the only maintenance local was Tulsa.  Line mechanics made up a very small fraction of what was essentially fleet service locals.  I haven't forgot those days.  Look, I don't blame fleet service for taking all they could get - hell, they did.  Doesn't mean it went unnoticed.  Then, after enough line AMTs started pointing out the obvious, and a narrow escape from AMFA - the TWU created line maintenance locals to appease the line AMTs.   Here we are 12 years later, and the TWU just screwed us again with the IBT sham at the NMB (aided by AA).  Now only one line maintenence local remains, and the Jim Little legacy still haunts us, with this lingering abomination of an allegiance with the IAM.  That's great, two unions that couldn't find their a$$ with both hands representing us.  I don't look at any title group as an adversary.  At this point I would prefer to eliminate the suspicion, by just getting away from the TWU period.

 

[enough already]

La Li Lu Le Lo,
Not to add fuel to the fire or fan the flames but I forgot to add platers are also title 1 AMTs. Although a license is not required to wrench on A/C.. I agree with OldGuy@AAs statement. If Machinist, Welders and Platers are allowed to wrench on A/C (@AA) then A&Ps should be allowed to Machine, Weld or Plate.

They are. If they are qualified and can pass a test then they are able to bid on a job opening for welder or machinist.

 

[FLYNFISH]

Looks to me like he was wanting people to be able to change title groups and keep their seniority to me. But excuse me If I misinterpreted the post. I did point out in some instances where people were allowed to keep their seniority when upgrading from cleaner to AMT. For some reason the TWU decided that these should be the same title group. I do not think it is right for a 40 year employee to be displaced, but that is what this contract did. I stand by what I said. Nobody should be able to change job titles and keep their seniority. NOBODY. You can read whatever you want into the rest of the post, but the truth is we have completely different jobs. I am thanking God that the TWU didn't make it possible for fleet to bump into the AMT job long ago. Yeah, machinists and welders are considered AMTs so they can bump an A&P mechanic, but the same A&P mechanic can't bump a machinist or welder. This is not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with you . He shouldn't be allowed to carry his seniority over to the other title group. But when 40 positions are being created to help some from hitting the street I believe the 40 yr man that was station protected deserved better than what he got. I mean look out of all 140 clerks the only person to land a job was Cirri. I forgot he was the only one that qualified right! 
Listen I know lifes not fair, people get served up sh!t sandwiches all the time. You pick up and make the best of what you were dealt. And you are right an A&P that qualifies should be able to bump a machinist . There is all kinds of language that is in place that defies logic. That 40 yr man is on the list to come back to Tulsa for Title 2. There are Title 1 employees with 2 yrs seniority also on that list. They get the job first because they are a local Tulsa transfer . Just seems a little out of whack to me! Like I said earlier he has paid his dues and deserved better. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I agree with you . He shouldn't be allowed to carry his seniority over to the other title group. But when 40 positions are being created to help some from hitting the street I believe the 40 yr man that was station protected deserved better than what he got. I mean look out of all 140 clerks the only person to land a job was Cirri. I forgot he was the only one that qualified right! 
Listen I know lifes not fair, people get served up sh!t sandwiches all the time. You pick up and make the best of what you were dealt. And you are right an A&P that qualifies should be able to bump a machinist . There is all kinds of language that is in place that defies logic. That 40 yr man is on the list to come back to Tulsa for Title 2. There are Title 1 employees with 2 yrs seniority also on that list. They get the job first because they are a local Tulsa transfer . Just seems a little out of whack to me! Like I said earlier he has paid his dues and deserved better.

I agree that there should have been something done to protect their seniority. I just didn't agree that the seniority should come with them to another title group.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

They are. If they are qualified and can pass a test then they are able to bid on a job opening for welder or machinist.

Again the double standard. Machinists, welders and platers do not have to pass any test to bump an AMT. More evidence that the TWU does not care nor do they respect AMTs.

 

[lineguy43]

Again the double standard. Machinists, welders and platers do not have to pass any test to bump an AMT. More evidence that the TWU does not care nor do they respect AMTs.

I do not know how it works at AA. AT NWA we had a similar problem.. in 1991/92 in MSP they had cutbacks and we had AMT's who had 1990 seniority who had to leave MSP and commute to Detroit while machinists with with 1992 seniority got to stay cuz they cuz AMT's could not bump machine shop even those who had experience in that field.. But Machinists and welders could come out to the hangers to work on their A@P's seems like that is a recurring problem.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Again the double standard. Machinists, welders and platers do not have to pass any test to bump an AMT. More evidence that the TWU does not care nor do they respect AMTs.

 

I do not know how it works at AA. AT NWA we had a similar problem.. in 1991/92 in MSP they had cutbacks and we had AMT's who had 1990 seniority who had to leave MSP and commute to Detroit while machinists with with 1992 seniority got to stay cuz they cuz AMT's could not bump machine shop even those who had experience in that field.. But Machinists and welders could come out to the hangers to work on their A@P's seems like that is a recurring problem.

You have established a pattern. Now ask yourself why that pattern exist. Ask yourself what the company gains by doing that.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

OldGuy@AA I have yet to see your response from post#45. I would like to hear what you have to say, or read what you have to say as the case may be.
 
Just because they OUTSOURCED pushbacks to YOU GUYS doesn't mean you can do OUR JOB. Face it. You ain't qualified. Unless you go to school and pass all the tests you won't ever be qualified. 
 
You claim me an aggressor but the tone of what you write is aggressive. What you say suggest you consider Fleet and Aircraft Cleaners as outsiders. Outsourced? You guys? Our job? That is THREE times in ONE sentence. I do not know if that is really where you're mind is, if you're saying it out of anger and frustration, or you're falling in with UNION propaganda.
 
American Airlines is the only company I have ever worked for where employees consider other employees outsiders. 
 
One minute it is "UNION brother" the next it is outsourced, you guys, and our job.
 
I am not your enemy.
 
Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel that way about Fleet and Aircraft Cleaners then examine who actually initiated the changes that make you feel you were so wronged. I think you will find Fleet and Aircraft Cleaners had very little to do with it.
 
It is good you are angry. Focus it where it is warranted. 

 

[OldGuy@AA]

OldGuy@AA I have yet to see your response from post#45. I would like to hear what you have to say, or read what you have to say as the case may be.
 
Just because they OUTSOURCED pushbacks to YOU GUYS doesn't mean you can do OUR JOB. Face it. You ain't qualified. Unless you go to school and pass all the tests you won't ever be qualified. 
 
You claim me an aggressor but the tone of what you write is aggressive. What you say suggest you consider Fleet and Aircraft Cleaners as outsiders. Outsourced? You guys? Our job? That is THREE times in ONE sentence. I do not know if that is really where you're mind is, if you're saying it out of anger and frustration, or you're falling in with UNION propaganda.
 
American Airlines is the only company I have ever worked for where employees consider other employees outsiders. 
 
One minute it is "UNION brother" the next it is outsourced, you guys, and our job.
 
I am not your enemy.
 
Maybe you should ask yourself why you feel that way about Fleet and Aircraft Cleaners then examine who actually initiated the changes that make you feel you were so wronged. I think you will find Fleet and Aircraft Cleaners had very little to do with it.
 
It is good you are angry. Focus it where it is warranted.

No you're not my enemy. As a matter of fact I think you all got a raw deal in TUL. Cirri covered his own butt and left everyone else to fend for themselves. I don't ever like to see someone lose a job. I have nothing against fleet or cleaners. They are here for a job just like me. I have a problem with the TWU. I don't want to go into the laundry list again, but let's just say if we compare benefits between all work groups you'll find AMTs have the worst of all. The TWU did this. Not your fault. I do disagree with some of your ideas, but that doesn't mean anything really. The whole thing is the debate. Do not take it personal that I don't agree with something you say. You have the right to your opinion. Unfortunately many people will be losing their jobs in the next few years. AA and the TWU have conspired to rob us of our seniority by revising tests and making them more difficult to pass. But it is all designed to keep the senior guys in Tulsa from bumping to the line stations. AA doesn't like that to happen. They hosed you and they will hose many more. The TWU should be looking out for us but they never do. In a way I am glad that you will not have to deal with this anymore. The rest of us are stuck until they figure out a way to get rid of us. Now they won't even allow retirees on the base in Tulsa. I guess AA is scared some disgruntled old guy will cause trouble or something. It is really laughable.

 

[bigjets]

Can someone explain to me why a high seniority person is treated like a day one employee when they transfer to another title group? I would like to know how this foolishness got started and why American Airlines employees continue to tolerate an archaic system designed to work against senior people. You should not be forced to do the same job your whole career because of fear of having to start your seniority completely over. This rule kills aspirations and personal growth of American Airlines employees. Why should American Airlines employees be punished for wanting to try something new?
 
I have seen this rule affect people in many ways. I have seen people get their A&P’s then stay in another department for fear of losing their seniority and by consequence their job. I have seen American Airlines hire a lot of new people right before a layoff to shut higher seniority people out of transfers. A 40 year employee should not be treated like a day one employee when he switches to another shop by either desire or circumstance. I can understand some positions require specialized training (electrician, carpenter, A&P Mechanic) but a lot of them do not.
 
I hope this post does not fall on deaf ears. I hope the membership will step up and put a stop to a foolish rule that does considerable damage to the American Airlines workforce and is really only useful as a tool for management.
 
Free yourself of this manipulation.

 
What are you a socialist? Everbody is equal ? Why should a Maint control tech, who has been a MCT for 5 years be bumped down in seniority because you want to try something after working in the seat shop (example) for 20 years?

 

[bigjets]

You should know the answer to that. Because that's the way AA wanted it. They would rather that you leave than stay.

The flip side is that most A&Ps had to have five years experience before they could even get hired as an A&P, they get no credit for that time, do you think they would be OK with a guy who waited till they lowered standards to jump ahead of him in seniority? So it is what it is and there is no way mechanics would vote to let Fleet guys come in and bump them down in seniority. Many resent that they get to pick their vacation with their full seniority.

Amen, The ramp guys came over after they got their license. While mechanics off the street had to have 3 years experience. I don't consider that promoting the profession, I call that creating more dues paying members. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Again the double standard. Machinists, welders and platers do not have to pass any test to bump an AMT. More evidence that the TWU does not care nor do they respect AMTs.

If they go to the line they have to take the test.

 

[lineguy43]

 
You have established a pattern. Now ask yourself why that pattern exist. Ask yourself what the company gains by doing that.

I will tell you the pattern that was established the "test" the AMT's had to take in the machine shop was rigged so you could never pass it even the machine shop mechanics admitted it and it was sanctioned by the manager there. Of course the great IAM looked the other way. Tell you what if I had been in the hanger if a machine shop dude that came out to work on getting his A@P I would have made his life a living hell. Thats where the plant maintenance guys were different that department didn't pull that crap when the bumping started like the machine and welding shops did. If you want to have a test fine but make it fair don't rig the system.