40 to 1

[Thomas Paine]

Imagine the feeling when you see an aircraft full of people take off after you have completely overhauled the right main landing gear. You pray you didn't miss anything. If you put a bag on the wrong airplane nobody dies. We can't make mistakes. Your argument is not a good one.

The discussion really doesn't need to deteriorate into that. Every job is important, and everyone should be able to afford the basics off a 40 hour week. Just because we have failed to negotiate a fair return for the value we bring that's no reason to start to belittle what others do. Our condition is our failure, management doesn't pay us less so they can pay baggage handlers more, that whole pie thing is their BS creation that corrupt union bought into and sold the membership, they want to pay all of us less so they can have a lot more for themselves, and they have been doing pretty much been doing that, don't get fooled into thinking that just because they aren't showing big profits that there aren't people making big money off our labor. We need to look at Fleet as allies, not opponents.

 

[AANOTOK]

Thomas Paine,
You seem to be an honest, level headed type of guy. A breath of fresh air, thanks!

 

[FLYNFISH]

I must say it does not take long for people to turn on each other. Mr Lu's post never said said he wanted his seniority to carry over or that he ever wanted to be an amt. But he sure did ruffle some feathers by asking a question. I also worked in fleet at the terminal and base at tule. The 40 to 1 reference I believe was touching on what happened to our crew chief from the terminal. This man gave 40 yrs of his life to AA and TWU. If any of you amt's went over to the terminal to pick up or deliver an aircraft you surely know Tom. He is a very well respected man. Hardworking and loyal employee. He was also the only one with station protection. When the deal went down to give the fleet work to the OSM's at the base another deal was worked out for the building cleaners to be switched over to MSP's in facilities.  The intent was to save people from hitting the street which it did for about 40 building cleaners with approximate seniority of 1 yr. Fleet service had some very high seniority within the dept. I guess the short of it is how a deal was worked for folks with 1 yr and nothing could be done to place a 40 year employee that was station protected into a position. I know we lost station protection in this  contract  but if positions were being created this man surely deserved one of those spots. He has paid his dues! And yes he did go somewhere on the rif. To DFW so he could keep medical insurance for personal reasons. Hes a young 59 yr old that commutes each week back and forth from Tul to Dfw. I share many a plane rides with him. He deserved a lot better than what he got!   That's the 40 to 1.

 

[FLYNFISH]

The discussion really doesn't need to deteriorate into that. Every job is important, and everyone should be able to afford the basics off a 40 hour week. Just because we have failed to negotiate a fair return for the value we bring that's no reason to start to belittle what others do. Our condition is our failure, management doesn't pay us less so they can pay baggage handlers more, that whole pie thing is their BS creation that corrupt union bought into and sold the membership, they want to pay all of us less so they can have a lot more for themselves, and they have been doing pretty much been doing that, don't get fooled into thinking that just because they aren't showing big profits that there aren't people making big money off our labor. We need to look at Fleet as allies, not opponents.

Mr. Paine you get the wisdom award for the year ! By nature we want to lay the blame somewhere else. So many are blinded by their own ego's they lose sight of the real way to win. It will never happen with a divide workforce. But as a group we have lost our way and let them lead us down this road of me,me,me. They have played us perfectly. It is nice to see someone from the amt side publicly state on this forum especially that the people of fleet service are not your opponents.  Good on you !

 

[Overspeed]

Aren't you the one who goes after people for putting the blame elsewhere? So here you are claiming that Frank Lorenzo is to blame for the TWU being the first major Carrier to agree to super low paid unlicensed mechanics without a fight? You are blaming what Frank Lorenzo did in 1983 for what the TWU did in 1995. Wasn't Continental fresh out of their second Bankruptcy in 1995, a real one.and wasn't Lorenzo long gone?

 
I never blamed anyone. I stated the fact that 121 and 145 provide for the ability to hire unlicensed mechanics that's it. Keep twisting and manufacturing arguments that don't exist if it makes you feel better.

 

[BigMac]

 
When has a welder bumped an AMT? Welders are Title II.

Welders and machinist are Title 1 & labeled AMTs.
Welders and machinist were grandfathered into the hangars years ago. Some are currently wrenching on aircraft.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I must say it does not take long for people to turn on each other. Mr Lu's post never said said he wanted his seniority to carry over or that he ever wanted to be an amt. But he sure did ruffle some feathers by asking a question. I also worked in fleet at the terminal and base at tule. The 40 to 1 reference I believe was touching on what happened to our crew chief from the terminal. This man gave 40 yrs of his life to AA and TWU. If any of you amt's went over to the terminal to pick up or deliver an aircraft you surely know Tom. He is a very well respected man. Hardworking and loyal employee. He was also the only one with station protection. When the deal went down to give the fleet work to the OSM's at the base another deal was worked out for the building cleaners to be switched over to MSP's in facilities.  The intent was to save people from hitting the street which it did for about 40 building cleaners with approximate seniority of 1 yr. Fleet service had some very high seniority within the dept. I guess the short of it is how a deal was worked for folks with 1 yr and nothing could be done to place a 40 year employee that was station protected into a position. I know we lost station protection in this  contract  but if positions were being created this man surely deserved one of those spots. He has paid his dues! And yes he did go somewhere on the rif. To DFW so he could keep medical insurance for personal reasons. Hes a young 59 yr old that commutes each week back and forth from Tul to Dfw. I share many a plane rides with him. He deserved a lot better than what he got!   That's the 40 to 1.

Tom did deserve better than that. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Welders and machinist are Title 1 & labeled AMTs.
Welders and machinist were grandfathered into the hangars years ago. Some are currently wrenching on aircraft.

Thank you for the information.

 

[AA-MRO.COM]

Fleet is just a touch more than putting a bag on an airplane. There are issues which could cause someone to
"die"...but I digress...carry on!

 
Here is a good example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivJ9sEu8-iM

 

[Zom JFK]

The discussion really doesn't need to deteriorate into that. Every job is important, and everyone should be able to afford the basics off a 40 hour week. Just because we have failed to negotiate a fair return for the value we bring that's no reason to start to belittle what others do. Our condition is our failure, management doesn't pay us less so they can pay baggage handlers more, that whole pie thing is their BS creation that corrupt union bought into and sold the membership, they want to pay all of us less so they can have a lot more for themselves, and they have been doing pretty much been doing that, don't get fooled into thinking that just because they aren't showing big profits that there aren't people making big money off our labor. We need to look at Fleet as allies, not opponents.

Kudos to you Thomas Paine. Some of these guys just don't get it and never will. Ever since that sickening bastard Bob "how to build an airline at your employee's expense" Crandall told the AMTs at AA he can't pay his mechanics more because Fleet service's pay is too high a lot of mechanics have been running with that ball ever since. Talk about working like a charm! He's probably on his sailboat laughing at them to this day.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Can someone explain to me why a high seniority person is treated like a day one employee when they transfer to another title group? I would like to know how this foolishness got started and why American Airlines employees continue to tolerate an archaic system designed to work against senior people. You should not be forced to do the same job your whole career because of fear of having to start your seniority completely over. This rule kills aspirations and personal growth of American Airlines employees. Why should American Airlines employees be punished for wanting to try something new?
 
I have seen this rule affect people in many ways. I have seen people get their A&P’s then stay in another department for fear of losing their seniority and by consequence their job. I have seen American Airlines hire a lot of new people right before a layoff to shut higher seniority people out of transfers. A 40 year employee should not be treated like a day one employee when he switches to another shop by either desire or circumstance. I can understand some positions require specialized training (electrician, carpenter, A&P Mechanic) but a lot of them do not.
 
I hope this post does not fall on deaf ears. I hope the membership will step up and put a stop to a foolish rule that does considerable damage to the American Airlines workforce and is really only useful as a tool for management.
 
Free yourself of this manipulation.

Looks to me like he was wanting people to be able to change title groups and keep their seniority to me. But excuse me If I misinterpreted the post. I did point out in some instances where people were allowed to keep their seniority when upgrading from cleaner to AMT. For some reason the TWU decided that these should be the same title group. I do not think it is right for a 40 year employee to be displaced, but that is what this contract did. I stand by what I said. Nobody should be able to change job titles and keep their seniority. NOBODY. You can read whatever you want into the rest of the post, but the truth is we have completely different jobs. I am thanking God that the TWU didn't make it possible for fleet to bump into the AMT job long ago. Yeah, machinists and welders are considered AMTs so they can bump an A&P mechanic, but the same A&P mechanic can't bump a machinist or welder. This is not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[ChockJockey]

We need to look at Fleet as allies, not opponents.

 
Cheers to that.
 
*clink*

 

[blue collar]

I'm a fan of classification seniority. Here's why:

At NW, I had 3 dates on the ramp: PT (also my DOH), FT, and Lead. For FT, anyone with an earlier DOH could've bid it. They didn't. For Lead, anyone with an earlier FT date could've bid it & had it. They didn't.

So let's flash forward a several years: I've slogged my way through all the sh*t shifts, terrible days off, etc. and finally claw my way to a (relatively) decent spot. How is it okay that someone that passed on the position(s) the first time around now takes it, and cuts in line? It's not.

At least with classification time, people can move around, but those that are already there are not usually negatively impacted for shift bidding.

Just my .02...

Great points, and I also agree with classification seniority- however, I don't agree with 'premium' seniority (lead, inspector, lead inspector). I feel for the premium spots it should go based on your classification seniority, I do think premium spots should be paid top of scale tho- no matter your seniority. There are plenty of circumstances that could lead to an imbalance in premium seniority- and that's why I disagree with it.

 

[blue collar]

The discussion really doesn't need to deteriorate into that. Every job is important, and everyone should be able to afford the basics off a 40 hour week. Just because we have failed to negotiate a fair return for the value we bring that's no reason to start to belittle what others do. Our condition is our failure, management doesn't pay us less so they can pay baggage handlers more, that whole pie thing is their BS creation that corrupt union bought into and sold the membership, they want to pay all of us less so they can have a lot more for themselves, and they have been doing pretty much been doing that, don't get fooled into thinking that just because they aren't showing big profits that there aren't people making big money off our labor. We need to look at Fleet as allies, not opponents.

Truth

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

BLUE = OldGuy@AA
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]The truth is that it was all a joke. There was no "Formal training" to speak of. If you don't have an A&P (and you don't) you have no idea what it takes to get one. You also have no idea of how much responsibility comes with it.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Are you saying that some kind of sham OJT program was designed where hours were documented but no true technical training or certification/testing of any kind took place? So the licenses they got were paper with nothing to back them up? I would like clarification.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I imagine it takes 18 months and an understanding of metalworking, pneumatics, hydraulics, electronics, electrical wiring, fire suppression systems, diesel technology, and mechanical ability. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Responsibility? I worked as an electrician before I worked for American Airlines. That poses danger to property and life.  Today I work on equipment where a mistake can cost millions of dollars a second. Not hours, not minutes, seconds. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I worked at a maintenance base for over 10 years. I am fully aware of legal and civil consequences a mechanic can pay for failure to properly install and repair aircraft related items. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]The TWU has tried to water down the AMT profession for years by bringing in the SRPs. Yes AA needed some A&P mechanics but they couldn't get them because we have always been the lowest paid in the industry. The A&Ps were all going to work for everyone else because they paid much better. So the TWU pushed for this program rather than push for higher pay. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I understand your points. I see a lot of validity in what you say. I would ask why you yourself did not go to a competitor.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]But like I said, there are things that need to be done to get an A&P and all we ask is that everyone do what is required with no shortcuts. What if there is a shortage of doctors? You want hospitals to make them from orderlies? I doubt it. You can't make a race horse out of a mule and you can't make an AMT out of just anybody. The TWU did allow AA to make SRPs out of people who worked in the credit union and Triad building though. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]That seems pretty reasonable to me. I agree the standard to achieve a license should be upheld. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]This is one reason why we can not get along. You think anyone with a heartbeat can be an AMT and I disagree.  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I think we can get along just fine. I usually agree with your posts. I do not think just anyone can be an AMT. Like I have stated many times, some people just do not have the aptitude. I have no idea where you got the idea that I think anyone can do AMT work.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]If you do want to be an AMT then go to school and get certified. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have no desire to be an AMT. I might remind you I went to school for my current job just as you went to school for yours.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]It is harder than you may think and I would bet that many of the upgrades from the TWU junior mechanic program would not have passed a real A&P school or written or practical test.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I would not know because I did not take part in that program. I am sure because of the variety of topics that must be learned the A&P test is difficult.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]But keep trying to belittle my profession. The TWU has trained you to do that.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have never belittled the mechanics. If anything I have championed the objective that United States aircraft should not be touched outside of the United States (no FAA) except in emergency situations. and that a license should be REQUIRED to work on flight critical components. Do you think I want my family flying on an aircraft maintained in some third world country or by someone uncertified? The TWU has trained me to do no such thing. That is in your mind.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Just because they outsourced pushbacks to you guys doesn't mean you can do our job. Face it. You ain't qualified. Unless you go to school and pass all the tests you won't ever be qualified. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I never said I was qualified to do your job. A license by itself does not make one qualified anyway. Anyone can pass a test; to do it in real life is a whole other matter. I am sure you have met some incompetent mechanics. Your qualification comes from a combination of education, experience, and skill.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Yeah I can understand why you want to be given an AMT position and bring your seniority with you so you can bump someone else out of a job.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have no desire to become an AMT. I have no desire to bump anybody. I have no desire to work for American Airlines. [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Honestly to me, working at American Airlines was a horrible experience, I am much happier now in my new field.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Someone who had to be qualified to get in the door. Your opinion of fair is very different from mine.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I don’t think our opinion of fair is that far apart. They may be on this one issue. I generally agree with your posts. I would say I have a lot of respect for you. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]You really missed your calling. You should have been a TWU guy. You could have been "Qualified" like Cirri was.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]You comparing me to Cirri is in pretty bad taste. [/SIZE]