AA B787s

[MERV]

Anyone here know if they confirm their orders because they were waiting on the pilots for the final decision.

 

[lpbrian]

Anyone here know if they confirm their orders because they were waiting on the pilots for the final decision.

The pilots don't decide on anything. In any case, the first 787's are not due on the property until 2014 at the earliest.

 

[Hopeful]

The pilots don't decide on anything.

You mean like their SCOPE clause? Yea they don't decide anything!

 

[lpbrian]

You mean like their SCOPE clause? Yea they don't decide anything!

What do 787's have to do with SCOPE?

 

[Hopeful]

What do 787's have to do with SCOPE?

You said the pilots don't decide ANYTHING...

My reply was that just look at SCOPE,,,they decide SOMETHING....
I was not specifically replying to the 787s,,,just the fact that SCOPE has alot to do with how AA is restricted in certain aspects of their operations.

 

[Winglet]

You said the pilots don't decide ANYTHING...

My reply was that just look at SCOPE,,,they decide SOMETHING....
I was not specifically replying to the 787s,,,just the fact that SCOPE has alot to do with how AA is restricted in certain aspects of their operations.

Scope does not apply to the 787. AA management is, of course, free to buy whatever airplane they choose for AA. However, they DO have to negotiate a pay rate for that aircraft to be included into the pilots' labor contract. And so far, Mr. Arpey has not broached that subject with the union. In fact, in over two years of labor negotiations, he has yet to even offer ANY kind of pay rate for ANY aircraft in the AA fleet. It's all a matter of stall, obfuscate, and stonewall. If AA wants a 787 they can negotiate a pay rate for it. If not, they can continue down the road they are blazing. I can only conclude by their actions that they don't want it. In a way, I agree with them. I think the 787 is going to be a huge risk in terms of reliability for the first couple years. It's very very different systems-wise and design philosophy from previous generations of airplanes. And we all know that since Crandall left AA, this management team has not been innovative and industry-leading in anything except their bonuses.

 

[Hopeful]

Let me clarify once more....I simply responded to Ipbrian's comment that the pilot's don't decide ANYTHING...
I was not referring to the 787 issue but it may have looked that way because that was the subject of the post.

Maybe I should have started a new thread......What I am saying is that all you have to do is look at the SCOPE and see that because of that agreement, pilots do decide SOMETHING......

Again, I am NOT referring to the 787s....Just THINGS IN GENERAL....

 

[Maark767]

Scope does not apply to the 787. AA management is, of course, free to buy whatever airplane they choose for AA. However, they DO have to negotiate a pay rate for that aircraft to be included into the pilots' labor contract. And so far, Mr. Arpey has not broached that subject with the union. In fact, in over two years of labor negotiations, he has yet to even offer ANY kind of pay rate for ANY aircraft in the AA fleet. It's all a matter of stall, obfuscate, and stonewall. If AA wants a 787 they can negotiate a pay rate for it. If not, they can continue down the road they are blazing. I can only conclude by their actions that they don't want it. In a way, I agree with them. I think the 787 is going to be a huge risk in terms of reliability for the first couple years. It's very very different systems-wise and design philosophy from previous generations of airplanes. And we all know that since Crandall left AA, this management team has not been innovative and industry-leading in anything except their bonuses.

Very well said and so true !!!

 

[Ralph]

The topic is AA's orders (or not) for the B787. If this thread is going to wander off in to the "all management is greedy and evil" forest, it will be closed.

 

[lpbrian]

The topic is AA's orders (or not) for the B787. If this thread is going to wander off in to the "all management is greedy and evil" forest, it will be closed.

If what winglet is true, let AA dig out MD-11's and DC-10's out the desert, and cancel 787's. that will help AA pilots and their careers.

 

[lpbrian]

Scope does not apply to the 787. AA management is, of course, free to buy whatever airplane they choose for AA. However, they DO have to negotiate a pay rate for that aircraft to be included into the pilots' labor contract. And so far, Mr. Arpey has not broached that subject with the union. In fact, in over two years of labor negotiations, he has yet to even offer ANY kind of pay rate for ANY aircraft in the AA fleet. It's all a matter of stall, obfuscate, and stonewall. If AA wants a 787 they can negotiate a pay rate for it. If not, they can continue down the road they are blazing. I can only conclude by their actions that they don't want it. In a way, I agree with them. I think the 787 is going to be a huge risk in terms of reliability for the first couple years. It's very very different systems-wise and design philosophy from previous generations of airplanes. And we all know that since Crandall left AA, this management team has not been innovative and industry-leading in anything except their bonuses.

No risk for AA. For a system stand point the 787 is a natural evolution from the 777. The first 787 will enter service later this year, while AA's first 787 will not arrive until 2014 at the ealiest. As I said in my previous post, APA may not agree to pay rates for 787's. But then again, maybe DC-10's and MD-11's in the desert are key to APA members future.......

 

[Joe Patroni]

No risk for AA. For a system stand point the 787 is a natural evolution from the 777. The first 787 will enter service later this year, while AA's first 787 will not arrive until 2014 at the ealiest. As I said in my previous post, APA may not agree to pay rates for 787's. But then again, maybe DC-10's and MD-11's in the desert are key to APA members future.......

Your statement about the DC-1o's and MD-11's may be true but, all those airplanes have been sold or cut up. They don't exsist anymore.

 

[FWAAA]

Anyone here know if they confirm their orders because they were waiting on the pilots for the final decision.

Here's the latest word from AA on the 787s:

In 2008, the Company entered into a new purchase agreement with Boeing for the acquisition of 42 firm Boeing 787-9 aircraft and purchase rights to acquire up to 58 additional B787 aircraft. Per the purchase agreement, the first such aircraft was scheduled to be delivered in 2012, and the last firm aircraft was scheduled to be delivered in 2018 with deliveries of additional aircraft, if any, scheduled between 2015 and 2020. The Company and Boeing are currently discussing a revised delivery schedule due to the impact of the overall Boeing 787 program delay on American’s delivery positions. The revised delivery schedule is expected to include terms and conditions consistent with the original agreement and to allow the Company confirmation rights both similar to those described below.

Under the current 787-9 purchase agreement, except as described below, American will not be obligated to purchase a 787-9 aircraft unless it gives Boeing notice confirming its election to do so at least 18 months prior to the scheduled delivery date for that aircraft. If American does not give that notice with respect to an aircraft, the aircraft no longer be subject to the 787-9 purchase agreement. These confirmation rights may be exercised until a specified date, May 1, 2013 under the current agreement, provided that those rights will terminate earlier if American reaches a collective bargaining agreement with its pilot union that includes provisions enabling American to utilize the 787-9 to American’s satisfaction in the operations desired by American, or if American confirms its election to purchase any of the initial 42 787-9 aircraft. While there can be no assurances, American expects that it will have reached an agreement as described above with its pilots union prior to the first notification date. In either of those events, American would become obligated to purchase all of the initial 42 aircraft then subject to the purchase agreement. If neither of those events occur prior to May 1, 2013 under the current agreement, then on that date American may elect to purchase all of the initial 42 aircraft then subject to the purchase agreement, and if it does not elect to do so, the purchase agreement will terminate in its entirety.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MzY5NjE3fENoaWxkSUQ9MzY1OTU4fFR5cGU9MQ==&t=1

If AA hasn't reached a new agreement with the pilots by May 1, 2013, its problems extend well beyond the fate of the 42 initial 787s.