AA overreached

[bluebird]

...We should make this all easy for them

They don't like uncertainty, or pain

We should spare them those uncomfortable things

Why wouldn't we?

"Thank you, sir! May I have another?" ~ Chip, Animal House

 

[AA89]

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be "Why should the BK laws be allowed to be used in order to give a solvent, though mismanaged, company a huge competitive advantage over its peers/competitors?

G'day

They shouldn't. The mechanics have had enough. Anybody else?

 

[Barfbag]

I'm betting that AA is in for a rude awakening if they decide to pursue abrogation......if you can read between the lines of APA Presidents statement to the pilots....."providing additional resources to the strke preparedness committee operations".......not exactly sure where AA will find 10K pilots by Saturday morning.

So what do you think will happen if AA ceases operations due to a pilot strike or action. Nothing. The price of seats goes up on OALs and airline stocks.... that's it.

Yes, the media will show long lines and faces from disgruntled AA passengers waiting to get protected on other flights. Still, my quess is that about a week after AA's shutdown it's many years of contribution to airline history will be lost.

Passengers have no brand loyalty when it comes to an airline seat, the only thing that matters is the price. You may want to believe that AA cannot be replaced, tell that to the PanAm people, and the hundreds of thousand airline jobs in between then and now.

 

[AC Tynker]

So what do you think will happen if AA ceases operations due to a pilot strike or action. Nothing. The price of seats goes up on OALs and airline stocks.... that's it.

Yes, the media will show long lines and faces from disgruntled AA passengers waiting to get protected on other flights. Still, my quess is that about a week after AA's shutdown it's many years of contribution to airline history will be lost.

Passengers have no brand loyalty when it comes to an airline seat, the only thing that matters is the price. You may want to believe that AA cannot be replaced, tell that to the PanAm people, and the hundreds of thousand airline jobs in between then and now.

Well put! Unfortunately

 

[4A Mechanic]

Sad to say, I agree!

 

[WorldTraveler]

So what do you think will happen if AA ceases operations due to a pilot strike or action. Nothing. The price of seats goes up on OALs and airline stocks.... that's it.

Yes, the media will show long lines and faces from disgruntled AA passengers waiting to get protected on other flights. Still, my quess is that about a week after AA's shutdown it's many years of contribution to airline history will be lost.

Passengers have no brand loyalty when it comes to an airline seat, the only thing that matters is the price. You may want to believe that AA cannot be replaced, tell that to the PanAm people, and the hundreds of thousand airline jobs in between then and now.

you are true - to a point.

The difference between other airlines that have failed and AA is that AA still has alot of revenue generating ability in its system that is of value to other airlines.
AA's capacity will not simply be thrown out the door in its entirety. And as long as there is value in AA's revenue generating capability, there will be other carriers willing to buy AA assets.
No one can absorb even one of AA's hubs into their network w/o taking some AA people.

If the creditors pull the plug on AA, it will be because they will not allow AA to be reduced to a near valueless operation. If the creditors pull the plug on AA it will because they have seen that airlines that cannot be turned around will ultimately end up valueless, regardless of the reason is because of bad strategic decisions, labor unrest, global issues or.....

If the creditors pull the plug on AA in the near future, it will be to preserve the value that exists in AA's network and to finally finish the 10 year long restructuring process that has left AA vulnerable to competitive attacks and involved in endless labor discord.

 

[Bob Owens]

So what do you think will happen if AA ceases operations due to a pilot strike or action. Nothing. The price of seats goes up on OALs and airline stocks.... that's it.

Yes, the media will show long lines and faces from disgruntled AA passengers waiting to get protected on other flights. Still, my quess is that about a week after AA's shutdown it's many years of contribution to airline history will be lost.

Passengers have no brand loyalty when it comes to an airline seat, the only thing that matters is the price. You may want to believe that AA cannot be replaced, tell that to the PanAm people, and the hundreds of thousand airline jobs in between then and now.

The industry was never as consolidated as it is now with the top three carriers producing over 60% of RPMs.

If the company abrogates and the pilots cause massive disruptions then we would probably see injunctions followed by a quickie PEB.

It would behoove other pilots to support the AA pilots, as I said earlier its doubtful that the govt will allow any of the big three to actually strike. Consolidation, like what occured in the rails many years ago, will pretty much make consentual deals outside of a PEB the exception instead of the norm. If the APA was hit with a PEB when market share was spread out between more carriers back in 1997 its highly likely that would happen again. All the experts say consolidation will continue with AA merging with a secondary carrier like US, or B6 or Alaska etc. Whats at stake for the Pilots at the big three is do they end up going into a PEB with rates based on what AA wants the pilots at AA to accept or does the APA go into a PEB with the rates set at what Delta and UAL have?

As far as AA capacity dissapearing , I disagree, have you flown anywhere lately? the planes are pretty much full, not just at AA but across the industry. If AA were to dissapear Tulsa may be shuttered but the capacity, and most of the employees, would be picked up by the survivors. That happened when EAL went away and again when Pan Am went away and there was a lot more surpluss capacity then there is now.

 

[Overspeed]

The industry was never as consolidated as it is now with the top three carriers producing over 60% of RPMs.

If the company abrogates and the pilots cause massive disruptions then we would probably see injunctions followed by a quickie PEB.

It would behoove other pilots to support the AA pilots, as I said earlier its doubtful that the govt will allow any of the big three to actually strike. Consolidation, like what occured in the rails many years ago, will pretty much make consentual deals outside of a PEB the exception instead of the norm. If the APA was hit with a PEB when market share was spread out between more carriers back in 1997 its highly likely that would happen again. All the experts say consolidation will continue with AA merging with a secondary carrier like US, or B6 or Alaska etc. Whats at stake for the Pilots at the big three is do they end up going into a PEB with rates based on what AA wants the pilots at AA to accept or does the APA go into a PEB with the rates set at what Delta and UAL have?

An illegal job action Bob? Really? That's all you got. Didn't the pilots get slammed with a huge fine last time?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Pilots got hit with fine but didn't they make a deal and not pay it

 

[Bob Owens]

An illegal job action Bob? Really? That's all you got. Didn't the pilots get slammed with a huge fine last time?

Maybe it would be illegal, maybe it wouldnt, who knows how things will play out. We were told that we had to vote Yes because if we didnt come June 6 our contract would be history and over 4000 would be laid off, then it was June 22, then June 29, then August 15, now its back to Sept 4 for the pilots who voted NO. If the company abrogates and imposes and the APA requests a release from the NMB based upon the fact that they negotiated for six years, had a TA rejected, had the contract abrogated and still their is no hope for a settlement even though the company has been availed self help (which is leading to disruptions) then what will the NMB cite as a reason for refusal? Lets face it, prior to BK the pilots really didnt want a release, because at the time they were the highest paid with the strictest scope in the industry, they would have once again ended up in a PEB and probably given big concessions, but since then Arpeys "convergence theory" has come to fruition and recent deals at competitors will put pilots at competitors in a better position that AA's pilots.

When Mike Quill pulled the plug on the MTA back in 1966 was that a legal act or an illegal one?

 

[Overspeed]

So what do you think will happen if AA ceases operations due to a pilot strike or action. Nothing. The price of seats goes up on OALs and airline stocks.... that's it.

Yes, the media will show long lines and faces from disgruntled AA passengers waiting to get protected on other flights. Still, my quess is that about a week after AA's shutdown it's many years of contribution to airline history will be lost.

Passengers have no brand loyalty when it comes to an airline seat, the only thing that matters is the price. You may want to believe that AA cannot be replaced, tell that to the PanAm people, and the hundreds of thousand airline jobs in between then and now.

From what I am hearing from pilots is they fully expect their TA to be abrogated and a strike isn't even on the radar. They believe that they will still be able to bargain for more dollars and better work rules. Doubtful considering the Creditors have stated they will not support any further sweetening of the labor deals or increased equity shares. So looks like a Mexican stand off.

AA will not cease ops or go in to CH7 however if the Creditors are put in the drivers seat at AA a merger is highly likely.

It is tie for the pompous wind bags (vote no coalition) to realize the predicament we are in. We have zero leverage, a job action is highly unlikely and would be a disaster for labor, and there is no upside by going to abrogation.

Bob and his buddies should be happy because they can continue to play their game of coulda' shoulda' woulda' for years to come to get re-elected to their "student body" president jobs at the Locals. They can prance around puffing out their chests and feel like big people when in fact they are very, very small.

 

[Overspeed]

Pilots got hit with fine but didn't they make a deal and not pay it

Yes and they lost leverage as a result of the illegal job action. Exactly my point.

 

[Overspeed]

Maybe it would be illegal, maybe it wouldnt, who knows how things will play out. We were told that we had to vote Yes because if we didnt come June 6 our contract would be history and over 4000 would be laid off, then it was June 22, then June 29, then August 15, now its back to Sept 4 for the pilots who voted NO. If the company abrogates and imposes and the APA requests a release from the NMB based upon the fact that they negotiated for six years, had a TA rejected, had the contract abrogated and still their is no hope for a settlement even though the company has been availed self help (which is leading to disruptions) then what will the NMB cite as a reason for refusal? Lets face it, prior to BK the pilots really didnt want a release, because at the time they were the highest paid with the strictest scope in the industry, they would have once again ended up in a PEB and probably given big concessions, but since then Arpeys "convergence theory" has come to fruition and recent deals at competitors will put pilots at competitors in a better position that AA's pilots.

When Mike Quill pulled the plug on the MTA back in 1966 was that a legal act or an illegal one?

1966? Do you have anything more recent? In 1776 a group of people rose up against the King and won, should we activate the Minutemen Bob?

The NMB will not release the APA until well after exiting BK, there will most likely be a merger, and then a new round of negotiations will start. Release? Maybe in three years, if you are lucky. The APA will be beaten down by then.

 

[Overspeed]

The industry was never as consolidated as it is now with the top three carriers producing over 60% of RPMs.

If the company abrogates and the pilots cause massive disruptions then we would probably see injunctions followed by a quickie PEB.

It would behoove other pilots to support the AA pilots, as I said earlier its doubtful that the govt will allow any of the big three to actually strike. Consolidation, like what occured in the rails many years ago, will pretty much make consentual deals outside of a PEB the exception instead of the norm. If the APA was hit with a PEB when market share was spread out between more carriers back in 1997 its highly likely that would happen again. All the experts say consolidation will continue with AA merging with a secondary carrier like US, or B6 or Alaska etc. Whats at stake for the Pilots at the big three is do they end up going into a PEB with rates based on what AA wants the pilots at AA to accept or does the APA go into a PEB with the rates set at what Delta and UAL have?

As far as AA capacity dissapearing , I disagree, have you flown anywhere lately? the planes are pretty much full, not just at AA but across the industry. If AA were to dissapear Tulsa may be shuttered but the capacity, and most of the employees, would be picked up by the survivors. That happened when EAL went away and again when Pan Am went away and there was a lot more surpluss capacity then there is now.

Bob, you tried to sway CO and UA AMTs and that worked awesome. Now you are rallying the ALPA pilots at all airlines to save labor? Really?

Put down the two dollar scotch Bob.

 

[riceweevil]

An illegal job action Bob? Really? That's all you got. Didn't the pilots get slammed with a huge fine last time?

This situation cannot even be compared to the last time because of C11. If the court abrogates the pilots contract then they would have legal grounds to at least attempt a self-help action.BTW, the $45 million fine was never paid because AA agreed to abolish it during the 2003 concessions.The fine was imposed by a judge in Ft.Worth and it never made it to trial much less the Appeals Court.

At some point labor is going to have to make a 'last stand" or we are finished. I guess you think it is okay for corporate Amerika to do whatever it wishes to the workers who have a MAJOR PART in producing the wealth.[Especially the Pilots in the airline business]