AA overreached

[bluebird]

...You may want to believe that AA cannot be replaced, tell that to the PanAm people, and the hundreds of thousand airline jobs in between then and now.

...The mechanics have had enough. Anybody else?

It would be a shame for AA to fold but they show no indication of making it right for those that they employ.

Pan Am was a great airline and we got some of their FAs when they went under. We aren’t a better airline than they were.

 

[AA89]

From what I am hearing from pilots is they fully expect their TA to be abrogated and a strike isn't even on the radar. They believe that they will still be able to bargain for more dollars and better work rules. Doubtful considering the Creditors have stated they will not support any further sweetening of the labor deals or increased equity shares. So looks like a Mexican stand off.

AA will not cease ops or go in to CH7 however if the Creditors are put in the drivers seat at AA a merger is highly likely.

It is tie for the pompous wind bags (vote no coalition) to realize the predicament we are in. We have zero leverage, a job action is highly unlikely and would be a disaster for labor, and there is no upside by going to abrogation.

Bob and his buddies should be happy because they can continue to play their game of coulda' shoulda' woulda' for years to come to get re-elected to their "student body" president jobs at the Locals. They can prance around puffing out their chests and feel like big people when in fact they are very, very small.

You seem like the kind of guy that would hand the car keys to a car jacker and watch as he drives away with your wife and kids.

 

[bluebird]

”I guess you think it is okay for corporate Amerika to do whatever it wishes to the…

Corporate America isn’t the problem. Capitalism isn’t the problem. In our workgroup, Leftist FAs are the problem.

They value equality--e.g. everyone works the same hours--fraternity

not liberty.

In requiring that they have destroyed everyone’s schedule. Our Eurotrash FAs must have picked that mentality up in France. It'’s Un-American.

"Equality, which is the primary value of the left, is a European value, not an American value. Let me tell you that right now. I know this sounds offensive to half of my fellow Americans, because they have been Europeanized in their values. The French Revolution is not the American Revolution. The French Revolution said Liberty, Fraternity, Equality. The American Revolution said Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. We have lost touch with what our distinctive American values are. We have distinctive American values. … We have a better value system...(Prager)."

Liberals destroy all that they touch (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

 

[RV4]

Outsourcing - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA all has that.
Bankruptcy - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA, all have been there.
Headcount Reductions - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA, all have suffered these.
Politics - IAM, TWU, IBT, AMFA, none are winning in this arena.

Of the above listed items, can anyone name a single union organization that has stopped the airlines from outsourcing work, or that succeeded in defending the union members in bankruptcy court, of that has not suffered headcount reductions in the last 15 years, or that been a true proven success in the politics of campaign involvement, or lobbying against overseas maintenance?

I read through this forum and I see union bashing union but I don't see any union being any better than the other union in any the above listed items that you folks are bashing each other over.

So if they are all failing at all of the above bashing items, and of those items there is not a difference period, then why not go with the one that stands the best chance at addressing your issues beyond those listed, and the one that the AMT would be the majority within?

 

[AA89]

Finish it then. Close up shop. We can't their airline more seriously than they do.


Corporate America isn't the problem. Capitalism isn't the problem. In our workgroup, Leftist FAs are the problem.

They value equality (e.g. everyone works the same hours) Fraternity

not liberty.

Our Eurotrash FAs must have picked that mentality up on France.

It's Un-American.

"Equality, which is the primary value of the left, is a European value, not an American value. Let me tell you that right now. I know this sounds offensive to half of my fellow Americans, because they have been Europeanized in their values. The French Revolution is not the American Revolution. The French Revolution said Liberty, Fraternity, Equality. The American Revolution said Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. We have lost touch with what our distinctive American values are. We have distinctive American values. … We have a better value system...(Prager)."

Liberals destroy all that they touch (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

You are right about the unions "everyone is equal" mentality and I have posted many times about my frustration with watching the union and company coddle the same worthless scumbags that have no business being around an airplane,

You mention capitalism yet dismiss it's role in all of this. Greed is taking over our capitalist system and is destroying the middle class in this country. Corporations are more of a problem than labor whether unionized or not. The only reason unionized labor gets the bad rep is because they are the only ones in a position to at least try and slow down the destruction that corporate America is unleashing. Non-union labor just takes the destruction silently, the same position some of the panty-waisted posters on this forum take on the issue.

The fact that a CEO has the ability to make such an extreme payday by taking a corporation through bankruptcy is all the proof we need. The executives that led us down this path are not leaders. They are crooks and they should be held accountable for what they have done for the past 10 years.
I think the value system you speak of in America died in the 60's.

 

[NYer]

When Mike Quill pulled the plug on the MTA back in 1966 was that a legal act or an illegal one?

YOU, of all people should know that because of the '66 MTA Strike, the Taylor Law was born that made such actions illegal since '67. Local 100 violated the law, Toussaint was arrested, the Local was fined $2,500,000 (which the rest of us are paying for) and they lost "check off's" which had about half their Membership not paying dues...

 

[NYer]

I hope everyone had a good time on Wednesday. As of Friday, it seems everyone should be back to reality. In reading the actual decision from the Judge, not just the headlines in the papers, it seems clear the majority of the decision went against the APA and Labor. As a matter of fact, the changes to be made would be similar to the Tentative Agreement turned down by the APA in the first place. No Victory there.

Then it so happens that the changes have been made shared with the APA, filed with the Court AND the Court has already written the decision to abrogate the contract. The official hearing will be on September 4th. The Unsecured Creditors Committee has come out publicly and said they would not authorize any sweeteners to the existing offer to the APA or APFA.

Too many of you celebrated without having the facts and without understanding the true meaning of what actually happened. Maybe there is a reason we are at the bottom of the industry and it doesn't seem it has to do with the International. Thank God we accepted the deal. The alternative is so much clearer now.

 

[Hopeful]

I hope everyone had a good time on Wednesday. As of Friday, it seems everyone should be back to reality. In reading the actual decision from the Judge, not just the headlines in the papers, it seems clear the majority of the decision went against the APA and Labor. As a matter of fact, the changes to be made would be similar to the Tentative Agreement turned down by the APA in the first place. No Victory there.

Then it so happens that the changes have been made shared with the APA, filed with the Court AND the Court has already written the decision to abrogate the contract. The official hearing will be on September 4th. The Unsecured Creditors Committee has come out publicly and said they would not authorize any sweeteners to the existing offer to the APA or APFA.

Too many of you celebrated without having the facts and without understanding the true meaning of what actually happened. Maybe there is a reason we are at the bottom of the industry and it doesn't seem it has to do with the International. Thank God we accepted the deal. The alternative is so much clearer now.

Most of us know what happened. Yes, abrogation of the APA agreement will most likely happen. But who's to say if there will or will not be further negotiations as the judge will make his final decision in early September.

The main thing is to remember the judge didn't just rubber stamp the request. He found two provisions that HAD to be modified.

Although the victory is sweet but short, it shows the judge found overreaching items nonetheless.

 

[bluebird]

“…You are right about the unions "everyone is equal" mentality and I have posted many times about my frustration with watching the union and company coddle the same worthless scumbags that have no business being around an airplane…”

I called the Q & A line and the FA Rep there told me that the APFA union membership has said that they no longer want FAs in the system that drop trips. He said, “We want those trips.”

How can you get those trips when you do not offer a fair Early Out (e.g. w/passes) for those of us with 20+ who would love to leave? While the 50+ age requirement remains for anything reasonable, it is not worth it or us to leave.

With your new ‘minimum hours paid to maintain employment’ we no longer have the option to drop. Having to relocate (two mortgages or two rent payments means) we have to pick up not drop. Too bad first stage thinkers don’t think things through.

“You mention capitalism yet dismiss it's role in all of this. Greed is taking over our capitalist system…”

Corporations exist to make money. They are amoral.

“…The only reason unionized labor gets the bad rep is because they are the only ones in a position to at least try and slow down the destruction that corporate America is unleashing…”

You don’t think unions are greedy?

“…I think the value system you speak of in America died in the 60's…”

Leftsits come to: steal, kill and destroy (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

When you look around and see: theft, murder, and destruction--you know a Leftist has been there.

 

[WorldTraveler]

This situation cannot even be compared to the last time because of C11.

precisely... and BK law gives enormous power to the court and to the debtor in doing what is necessary to turn the company around, powers that do not exist outside of BK.

It still doesn't change the fact that if AA gets to the point of needing a PEB, the creditors are likely to just pull the plug and come up w/ an option other than a standalone AA - and at that point, all kinds of options open up. And people on this forum have consistently failed to recognize all of the options that could be on the table.

The creditors are not going to watch their investment in AA be destroyed.

At some point labor is going to have to make a 'last stand" or we are finished.

Perhaps for AA people, yes.
But LABOR is not going to be destroyed because of what happens at AA.
Other airline employees are doing better than AA - which is the whole reason why AA employees are not willing to accept what AA is proposing.

It would be a shame for AA to fold but they show no indication of making it right for those that they employ.

Pan Am was a great airline and we got some of their FAs when they went under. We aren’t a better airline than they were.

exactly. Just like every other airline that failed to adapt to the reality of the world it faced, PA could not overcome changes in the aviation world that affected its outcome.
The difference between PA and other carriers is that labor played a fairly small part of PA's downfall. But PA joined the ranks of failed airlines anyway.
The reason for failure doesn't bring the jobs back one way or the other.

 

[riceweevil]

WT said : It still doesn't change the fact that if AA gets to the point of needing a PEB, the creditors are likely to just pull the plug and come up w/ an option other than a standalone AA - and at that point, all kinds of options open up. And people on this forum have consistently failed to recognize all of the options that could be on the table.

WT, you are not the only one on this forum that knows past history of Airline C11 BK's. It is very possible that a job action that lasted even a few days could turn a C11 into a C7.
Only the Pilots know if they are willing to take this risk. We can speculate all we want to on this forum but it is still up to the AA pilots which direction AA goes.The court can impose the AA Term Sheets on the pilots but AA management may not like the results of taking such action.

 

[bluebird]

[Pan Am] "The reason for failure doesn't bring the jobs back one way or the other.

Corporations do not exist to provide jobs. Corporations exist to make a profit. If you let them work, they can provide you with a job.

Can this company work? With Leftist unions battling against AA, I don’t know.

Leftist spread misery not joy (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

 

[Overspeed]

Good analysis

From Steven Baumert:

Some of you may remember me from my newsletter “The Baumert Report.” I’ve been a Registered Investment Adviser, the APFA Treasurer and now I currently serve as an Ad Hoc on the APFA Executive Committee. I’ve always been one to conduct my own analysis, my own assessment and form my own opinion. Here’s a few of my thoughts on the LBFO vote.

“Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment.”
– Michael Corleone

When conducting rational analysis and risk assessment, you must leave your emotions behind or it will cloud your judgment and, in turn, lead to self-deception and intellectual dishonesty.

So, emotions aside, it was clear the main reason one might possibly vote “no “ was that you were convinced the odds were favorable that the company would quickly negotiate a better overall agreement than the LBFO. Now, that reason has been rendered irrational by the UCC statement released Thursday.

“You can call the dogs in, wet the fire and leave the house. The hunt’s over.”
– James Carville

The Labor Subcommittee of the AMR’s Creditors’ Committee, August 16, 2012: “The Committee has concluded that there is no additional economic value beyond the current company offers that can be provided to the company's labor organizations without endangering AMR's reorganization and the rights and economic interests of nonunion creditors and parties in interest. Accordingly, the Committee decided today that it will oppose any new efforts to transfer additional economic value from general unsecured creditors to American's unionized employees.”

Even prior to the UCC statement and the non-victory Judge Lane handed labor, my cold, hard financial analysis and risk assessment led me to conclude the LBFO clearly presented more certainty and significantly less risk than the term sheet and its probable aftermath. The UCC statement and Judge Lane’s ruling simply further confirmed that my decision to vote “yes” is the only decision I could rationally make.

“No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude.”
– Karl Popper

While I think rational thought should be the order of the day, we’re all well aware of the very personal emotions surrounding this vote. I’ve felt them myself. We all have. And I understand the temptation to simply curse the darkness. But I’d rather stand in the light of rationality and what I’ve said here and let the shadows fall where they may.

So, we should not let our emotions, or the emotions of others, stand in the way of rational decision making. Nor should we let heightened emotions dictate how we discuss the issues and how we treat one another.

Because, at the end of the day, we are a union. It is what allows us to live in all parts of this country, fly out of so many different bases, live our individual lives but still come together as one. And though the fabric of this proud union may be tested, I’ll do everything to make sure it is not torn. And I know many of you will, as well.

Fly safe and take care of each other.

Steven Baumert
DFW

 

[WorldTraveler]

Rice,

WT, you are not the only one on this forum that knows past history of Airline C11 BK's. It is very possible that a job action that lasted even a few days could turn a C11 into a C7.
Only the Pilots know if they are willing to take this risk. We can speculate all we want to on this forum but it is still up to the AA pilots which direction AA goes.The court can impose the AA Term Sheets on the pilots but AA management may not like the results of taking such action.

I didn't say I was the only person who knows airline BK history.... but AA's BK is very different from other airlines for alot of reasons - and the outcome cannot be predicted based on what has happened before....

I do agree with you that only the pilots - and perhaps other labor groups - can decide how far they want to push this thing. And I also agree that it takes very little labor turmoil to push the creditors and/or AA management to come to the conclusion that AA will not be sucessfully restructured. Unlike outside of BK, there are limits to how long this whole drama can play out - and after 10 years PLUS, the end of AA's labor discord will come - one way or the other.

Given that the creditors have said they do not intend to allow AA to sweeten its offers and the pilots equal as dead set that they are willing to work for the terms AA is setting for the duration AA says it wants, I believe it is becoming increasingly unlikely that AA will emerge as a standalone.
If AMR cannot emerge as a standalone company, then there are many options on the table as to how the creditors will obtain recovery.

For at least some AA employees - and many pilots - they may find that their best choices involve an option that is neither AA standalone or an AA/US merger.
As such, some AA employees will decide it is not worth working with the company to save the company given that its assets do have value to other companies.

Corporations do not exist to provide jobs. Corporations exist to make a profit. If you let them work, they can provide you with a job.

Can this company work? With Leftist unions battling against AA, I don’t know.

Leftist spread misery not joy (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

We have no argument regarding the motivations of corporations.... or that when corporations fail, jobs will be lost - whether there is an acquirer/merger partner or not.

My point is simply that AA's employees are deeply divided about what is in the best interest of the company and their careers - and it is precisely that lack of unity that itself threatens AA's future.

 

[Overspeed]

YOU, of all people should know that because of the '66 MTA Strike, the Taylor Law was born that made such actions illegal since '67. Local 100 violated the law, Toussaint was arrested, the Local was fined $2,500,000 (which the rest of us are paying for) and they lost "check off's" which had about half their Membership not paying dues...

I did not know that. Great point