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Acc. To Delta: Combined FA Workforce "Most Likely" to vote again.

JakesWorld:

Earlier, I said I can't speak on behalf of NWA FAs....well, on this one issue I feel VERY COMFORTABLE saying this...

ANYTHING LESS THAN STRICT "DATE OF HIRE" and WE ARE GOING TO ARBITRATE THIS ISSUE AND FIGHT FOR THE BEST PLACEMENT POSSIBLE. Here's a few key components of what our arguments might look like...

* Delta FAs had the chance to join AFA and secure their seniority - on TWO OCCASSIONS. They didn't.
* Delta Air Lines themselves fought AGAINST the seniority protection legislation and in fact stated that the issue is "....a matter for collective bargaining" agreements. As such, they recognized their employees lacked contractual protections.
* Delta FAs are more senior than us, and consistent with PAST PRACTICE in the USAirways case (May 3, 2007 - Arbitrator George Nicolau), NWA FAs should be advantaged on the combined list.
 
JakesWorld:

Earlier, I said I can't speak on behalf of NWA FAs....well, on this one issue I feel VERY COMFORTABLE saying this...

ANYTHING LESS THAN STRICT "DATE OF HIRE" and WE ARE GOING TO ARBITRATE THIS ISSUE AND FIGHT FOR THE BEST PLACEMENT POSSIBLE. Here's a few key components of what our arguments might look like...

* Delta FAs had the chance to join AFA and secure their seniority - on TWO OCCASSIONS. They didn't.
* Delta Air Lines themselves fought AGAINST the seniority protection legislation and in fact stated that the issue is "....a matter for collective bargaining" agreements. As such, they recognized their employees lacked contractual protections.
* Delta FAs are more senior than us, and consistent with PAST PRACTICE in the USAirways case (May 3, 2007 - Arbitrator George Nicolau), NWA FAs should be advantaged on the combined list.
Danny

First off the arbitrator is not required to follow previous awards or consider them precedent (see below). I do not know where AFA is getting the information that Delta fought against Allegheny-Mohawk, Delta was the ONLY airline to lobby for this language. If it was just a matter for collective bargaining agreements then why did US/HP enter into arbitration? Their contracts should have secured that. Also I am including below a statement from NW ALPA on the US/HP arbitration situation. It seems as though in the US/HP case the financial situation situation of each carrier was taken into account as part of ones career expectation. What I think concerns a lot of us at DL is that we are a larger airline (aircraft and routes) and want to be able to maintain what we are currently holding on a month to month basis. We dont expect to gain 10 years our be more senior to the NW group, we want to be able to hold on to what we have. It is not fair or equitable that a NW F/A with one day more seniority can outbid a DL F/A, say on an FCO trip, when this would be something that they could never hold at NW based on our individuals operation today. The same goes if a NW F/A is holding a PVG out DTW, why should a DL F/A be able to go into that base and with one day more seniority outbid the NW F/A, when this is something we could not hold today.
NWA ALPA
Merger Committee
News Update Mike Lazarowicz
Chairman
Steve Mayer
May 15, 2007 Member
Lane Kranz
Member
America West – USAirways Merger
Arbitrator’s Decision on the Integrated Seniority List Art Aaron

WASHINGTON – On May 19, 2005 a merger
was announced between America West and
USAirways. Over the next year and a half,
Merger Committees of both carriers engaged in
direct negotiations. Unfortunately, the Merger
Committees were unable mutually to agree upon
a seniority list integration method. Per ALPA
Merger Policy, the parties entered the Arbitration
phase from December, 2006 through February,
2007. This phase removes the decision making
ability of both Merger Committees, as well as the
ability to control the destiny of their respective
pilot’s seniority status, and places this immense
responsibility in the hands of a neutral, mutually
agreed upon, non-pilot, Arbitrator.

The Committees agreed upon George Nicolau,
Esq. as Arbitrator. Considered to be among the
most experienced arbitrators, Mr. Nicolau has
decided many seniority list integrations including
those of FedEx/ Flying Tigers and Continental/
Frontier.

Additionally, each Committee was permitted to
select one “Pilot Neutral†to assist Arbitrator
Nicolau with his decision and understanding of
the situation. The USAirways pilots selected
Captain Steven Gillen (United) and the America
West pilots selected Captain James Brucia
(Continental).

On May 1, 2007, Arbitrator Nicolau announced
his decision on the Integrated Seniority List
combining the pilots of America West and
Alternate
Tom Facer
Alternate
USAirways. The Award has been thoroughly
reviewed by your NWA Merger Committee.

ALPA Merger Policy

In order to understand the Award, a basic review
of ALPA Merger Policy is in order. ALPA
Merger Policy states 5 specific “goalsâ€:

1) Preserve jobs.
2) Avoid windfalls to either group at the
expense of the other.
3) Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and
standard of living.
4) Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
5) Minimize detrimental changes to career
expectations.

This is also a good time to dispel 2 rumors.

Rumor—ALPA Merger Policy requires Date-of-
Hire (DOH) to be used. FALSE. The goals are
stated above.

Rumor— The Arbitrator is required to consider
previous Arbitration Awards and consider those
awards as precedent in his decision. FALSE.

2
While previous merger awards are frequently
quoted and referred to by the attorney’s
representing the parties, the Arbitrator is under
no legal requirement to consider them or use
them as a basis for his decision.

Background
America West (AW) and USAirways (US) are
strikingly different airlines. Their cultures are as
different as night and day. AW began
operations in 1983 and has never been involved
in a merger. It is no stranger to bankruptcy,
however, as it experienced a Chapter 11 filing in
the mid-90s. Additionally, AW was the recipient
of an ATSB government loan following
September 11, 2001.

In contrast, US began operations in 1968 as
Alleghany Airlines and subsequently
experienced several mergers, including those
involving Piedmont, PSA, and Trump Shuttle.
Also, since 9/11, USAirways has filed twice for
bankruptcy protection.

The Positions

Each merger committee desired a different
solution to combining seniority lists. US sought
a DOH list, adjusted for length of service. AW
sought a ratio method, considering pre-merger
financial conditions and pre-merger expectations
regarding jobs, status, pay, and future career
paths.

After the arbitration phase ended, and both
attorney’s gave their closing remarks the
Arbitrator and two pilot neutrals commenced
their deliberation. However, something highly
unusual occurred in the following weeks.
Arbitrator Nicolau ordered both sides to reconvene
for a “special†meeting. At this
meeting, Arbitrator Nicolau indicated that, “both
approaches created difficulties if….. those
positions were not fundamentally changed.†In
other words, he was giving the parties notice
that neither side was going to get what they
wanted and he was granting them one last
opportunity to change their position or to submit
a new proposal. Neither side budged.

Side-by-Side Comparison

America West USAirways
Pilots
(on 5/19/05)
1894 (no
furloughed pilots)
5098 (1,691 or 33%
on furlough)
Aircraft
(on 5/19/05)
144 jets 270 jets
(on 1-1-07) 132 jets 226 jets
9 A330s
10 767s
12 757s 34 757s
94 A320 Family 102 A320 Family
26 737s 69 737s
2 E190s
Financial
Status
OK Still in bankruptcy at
time of merger and
unprepared to
present a
reorganization plan
for its emergence.

Notable Quotes
We found the following quotes to be of interest.
Arbitrator Nicolau states, “The fact is that the
career expectations of the AW pilots on May 19,
2005 were far superior to those of the
USAirways pilots. USAirways pilots had more to
gain from the merger than their new colleagues.â€

Mr. Nicolau also quotes himself directly from the
FedEx/ Flying Tigers Award. Your NWA Merger
Committee finds the following quote to be most
useful and expressive of modern day airline
mergers:
“There are four basic lessons to be
learned from those submissions;
that each case turns on its own
facts; that the objective is to make
the integration fair and equitable;
that the proposals advanced by
those in contest rarely meet that
standard; and that the end result,
no matter how crafted, never
commands universal acceptance.â€


3
Nicolau implies the following:
1) No two mergers are the same
2) Fair and Equitable is the arbitrator’s goal
3) It is difficult for either side to be neutral and
non-emotional
4) Frequently, neither side likes the outcome
.

Why not just use DOH?

One of the most frequent questions received by
your NWA Merger committee is, “…Why not just
use DOH and be done with it?â€

DOH is sometimes used, but arbitrator’s
frequently site many other overriding factors.
Some considerations sited in the AW-US award
include: the financial state of each company,
the equipment and routes that each carrier
brings to the merger, the career expectations of
each pilot group and, most notably, the staffing
and efficiencies of each airline.

For example, in the AW-US Merger, the US
Merger Committee strictly pursued a DOH list,
adjusted for length of service. Had this method
been used, the #1 America West pilot would
have had 998 US pilots placed ahead of him on
the combined list. Additionally, approximately
1600 furloughed US pilots would have been
placed SENIOR to approx. 1500 currently
employed and working AW pilots. Clearly the
arbitrator felt that the DOH method would have
violated nearly all or some of the “goals†of the
ALPA Merger policy.
The End Result
Arbitrator Nicolau used a Ratio Method with
specified conditions and restrictions. He
employed a ratio method similar to that used in
the 1988 Federal Express/ Flying Tigers merger.
In that case, a healthy, growing, and vibrant
Federal Express acquired a financially troubled,
‘old school’ company. Using the ratio method,
Arbitrator Nicolau placed AW and US pilots into
different groups.

Group America West USAirways
Group 1
All Widebody
positions on the
A330 and 767-Int’l.
None Top 517 US pilots
(423 active + 94
mgmt. and long-
term sick)
Group 2
All 757 Captains
90 AW pilots 167 US pilots
Group 3
All A320 and B737
Captains
767 AW pilots 873 US pilots
Group 4
All 757 F/Os
87 AW pilots 176 US pilots
Group 5
All A320 and B737
F/Os
718 AW pilots 840 US pilots
Group 6
All US pilots on
furlough, as of
1-1-07.
None Remainder

Conditions and Restrictions:
1) Standard no bump–no flush restriction.
2) Protects US Widebody positions for 4 years
from date of award. If the Age 60 Rule changes
this restriction would no longer apply.

Reaction of both pilot groups

As Mr. Nicolau predicted, neither side is
particularly fond of the award. However, this is
an excellent time to point out the risks
associated with failing to make the hard
decisions internally and handing over the
disagreement to an arbitrator.

4

Some US pilots have been “shocked†to see that
their DOH of 1985 puts them in the same group
as AW pilots with a DOH of 1998. Removing the
emotion and looking at the facts, a US pilot with
a DOH of 1985 means that he was a very junior
Narrowbody Captain at US. And looking at an
America West pilot, hired in 1998 means that he
is a junior Captain. On the combined list, each
of these pilots is in the exact same, relative
position.

If you were furloughed on the old list, you are
still furloughed on the new list. If you are
recalled, and choose to return, you will be a
junior F/O for a long time. The same conditions
held true on the previous US list.

Conclusion

Mr. Nicolau was charged with deciding a case
that was notably difficult, but he used ALPA
Merger Policy to lay the framework for his
decision.

The US-AW Arbitration Award is available on
the "Merger Committee" page of the NWA MEC
website (https://crewroom.alpa.org/nwamec).
We encourage you to read it. Inside this award,
you will see that priority and emphasis was
placed on four items:
1) Financial Condition of each carrier
2) Career Expectations of each pilot group
3) Planes and Routes; what each airline
brought to the merger
4) Staffing; the internal efficiencies of each
carrier

After reading the Award, ask yourself these
questions…..
1) Did Arbitrator Nicolau preserve jobs for each
pilot group?
2) Did Arbitrator Nicolau avoid windfalls to
either pilot group at the expense of the other?
3) Did Arbitrator Nicolau maintain or improve
pre-merger pay and standard of living?
4) Did Arbitrator Nicolau maintain or improve
pre-merger pilot status?
5) Did Arbitrator Nicolau minimize detrimental
changes to career expectations?

Finally, ask yourself if it was possible to avoid
arbitration and work out these differences
internally between merger committees?

This was the first merger of two ALPA-
represented major carriers in well over 15 years.
The industry has changed.

We hope that the pilots of both carriers will rise
above emotion and respect the mutual need for
survival. We hope that both pilot groups will
move on and re-focus their attention on working
together to improve their contract. Nearly two
years after the merger announcement, both
carriers are still operated separately (no mixing
of pilots or aircraft). Each pilot group still works
under their previous contract.

We also hope that they can learn from history,
including that of NWA. The reality of the modern
era airline business brings many changes. One
change that is needed internally, among pilots,
is to learn to respect each other. Nothing can be
gained by name calling and hurling insults.
Everything can be lost without cohesiveness and
unity.

The Northwest Merger Committee
 
Seniority intergration is a union matter when both groups are represented, the company has nothing to do with it.
 
Jake:

Are you saying that you think it can be argued that NWA was/is less financially strong than Delta? That's simply not true. Also, the arbitration award from Nicolau accurately states that EACH case is different. For example, in the case of USAirways and America West, BOTH groups had a collective bargaining agreement. Not the case with DL FAs.

Also, while Nicolau accurately states that the process is not BOUND by past practice...I will tell you that I have NEVER been in an arbitration where the system board (or arbitrator) didn't request citations from past practice -- nor have I ever read one where the arbitrator didn't cite prior decisions.
 
Jake:

Are you saying that you think it can be argued that NWA was/is less financially strong than Delta? That's simply not true. Also, the arbitration award from Nicolau accurately states that EACH case is different. For example, in the case of USAirways and America West, BOTH groups had a collective bargaining agreement. Not the case with DL FAs.
Danny

No I am not. The way I look at and will share with other F/A's is this: The financial situation for each carrier is the same, the widebody/intl fleet (NW 50 a/c DL 90 a/c not sure of the accuracy info from wikipedia, route structure (NW does have a lock on Asia with 5 European destinations and DL is strong in Europe, South/Latin America, and Africa, with 3 Asian dest.). I cannot nor can you predict what an arbitrator would decide. There are a variety of scenarios that can occur. This is about seniority integration and a law that was enacted in 12/07, Alleghany-Mohawk which entitles ALL airline workers "Fair and Equitable" seniority integration. The law says nothing about one being union and the other being non-union.
I am sure we will continue to disagree on this topic and I it is my intent that DL F/A's see this side of the argument as well as the AFA side. This is about career expectations and what one is able to currently fly and what you will expect to fly during your career. Again, I DO NOT advocate anyone losing seniority, just that each side is treated fairly. What would be the most junior F/A at NW holding an international trip at DTW/MSP/SEA/LAX? Also what is reserve seniority at your more senior bases? A DL F/A with 10 years in ATL is holding intl for the month of May. Date of hire will not necessarily accomplish that. If I can hold a FCO or BUD today why should a DL F/A lose that next year to a NW F/A who has one day more seniority that could not have held a trip/or ever had the opportunity like this prior to the merger. There are many arguements that can be made on this issue its all a matter of opinion.
 
Luke:

Where are you based? You are a REALLY good writer. Why aren't you involved in the Delta-AFA campaign? If you win the election, you REALLY MUST be involved in the Delta-AFA Communications Team. You are clear, calm and know how to say a lot in few words (total opposite of me, btw). Do you reside in ATL?

Danny (Han Solo)

Thanks, Danny! I sent you a private message a couple days ago, if it went thru...ck your message box on this site.
But no, not ATL.
I think you do an excellent job, btw.

Luke
 
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree at the moment. I will continue researching the issues but at this time I see DOH benefiting NW f/a's and being a disadvantage to DL f/a's. And You guys seem very condisending and arrogant. when you say things like "If the two fail to come to terms (and anything less than DOH for NW FAs will be a failure), " and "NW FAs are not going to allow for a ratio that will improve DL FA's lot just because some junior people in NYC think their flying is "better" than NW's.". Also statemengs like "You are playing with the big boys now and have to buck up and face it. Delta is not the final say in this seniority issue" are statments that just provoke people to take issue with what you are saying. I didnt say that DL would have the final say in senority and most people on the DL side just want what is fair for both groups. NW f/a's will be more senior with the retirements that DL is offerning now and that will put us at a disadvangate. Just because we dont have a union, dont think you can take advantage of us. There are many people at DL right as we speak who are lobbying on behalf of DL f/a's and educating our leaders about the disadvantages of DOH for us. Again it is not about trying to do better than you but DOH is not fair and you guys can only see your side.

Cooper, it was not my intention to be condescending. I was merely expressing some frustration and impatience that you cannot or are choosing not to see Danny's point.
Also, if you've read some of my other postings, you will se that I am NOT a NW FA; I am Delta. This is a very emotional issue for everyone involved and rarely is everyone happy with the outcome. It depends where you're based and what seniority level you're at. And remember, bidding trips is not the only thing. I was here during the PanAm acquisition. First off, Delta protected the top 3,000 DL FA's. In other words, no PanAm FA went before a DL FA who was #1-3000 on the DL list. No one knows why they did this. The rest of us DL FA's I remember, felt left out. We were all asking...'how'd they come up with that number?' However, PA FAs DID retain their seniority for vacation and passes. You should have seen the orig. Delta FAs in places like MIA and LAX (NY was very, very small for DL before PanAM) that were no longer able to hold a Christmas vacation. So there are a lot of factors to consider.
And finally, it's not about only seeing one side. It's about educating one's self to what is available out there per law to get this situation ironed out and Danny and Jake are in the process of going through the details. I'm at the point now where I am just sitting back and absorbing the information. But the FACTS are that MOST LIKELY, this will end up in arbitration for the reasons Danny has illustrated. Now at this point, Jake seems to have admitted that but he is in the process of saying that arbitration may be ok for DL FA's. I think it may be ok for SOME, depending on where you're based and NOT OK for others. Time will tell.............
 
Danny

No I am not. The way I look at and will share with other F/A's is this: The financial situation for each carrier is the same, the widebody/intl fleet (NW 50 a/c DL 90 a/c not sure of the accuracy info from wikipedia, route structure (NW does have a lock on Asia with 5 European destinations and DL is strong in Europe, South/Latin America, and Africa, with 3 Asian dest.). I cannot nor can you predict what an arbitrator would decide. There are a variety of scenarios that can occur. This is about seniority integration and a law that was enacted in 12/07, Alleghany-Mohawk which entitles ALL airline workers "Fair and Equitable" seniority integration. The law says nothing about one being union and the other being non-union.
I am sure we will continue to disagree on this topic and I it is my intent that DL F/A's see this side of the argument as well as the AFA side. This is about career expectations and what one is able to currently fly and what you will expect to fly during your career. Again, I DO NOT advocate anyone losing seniority, just that each side is treated fairly. What would be the most junior F/A at NW holding an international trip at DTW/MSP/SEA/LAX? Also what is reserve seniority at your more senior bases? A DL F/A with 10 years in ATL is holding intl for the month of May. Date of hire will not necessarily accomplish that. If I can hold a FCO or BUD today why should a DL F/A lose that next year to a NW F/A who has one day more seniority that could not have held a trip/or ever had the opportunity like this prior to the merger. There are many arguements that can be made on this issue its all a matter of opinion.

I totaly agree with you Jake, I think arbitrationn as long as it is fair and equitable for both sides is the way to go. I am not sure why some at NW believe that just because we dont have a contract that we will have no rights. Now if we were the ones being aquired... that would be a whole different story. But I feel very confident that arbitration will be better for DL f/a's than DOH.
 
Cooper, it was not my intention to be condescending. I was merely expressing some frustration and impatience that you cannot or are choosing not to see Danny's point.
Also, if you've read some of my other postings, you will se that I am NOT a NW FA; I am Delta. This is a very emotional issue for everyone involved and rarely is everyone happy with the outcome. It depends where you're based and what seniority level you're at. And remember, bidding trips is not the only thing. I was here during the PanAm acquisition. First off, Delta protected the top 3,000 DL FA's. In other words, no PanAm FA went before a DL FA who was #1-3000 on the DL list. No one knows why they did this. The rest of us DL FA's I remember, felt left out. We were all asking...'how'd they come up with that number?' However, PA FAs DID retain their seniority for vacation and passes. You should have seen the orig. Delta FAs in places like MIA and LAX (NY was very, very small for DL before PanAM) that were no longer able to hold a Christmas vacation. So there are a lot of factors to consider.
And finally, it's not about only seeing one side. It's about educating one's self to what is available out there per law to get this situation ironed out and Danny and Jake are in the process of going through the details. I'm at the point now where I am just sitting back and absorbing the information. But the FACTS are that MOST LIKELY, this will end up in arbitration for the reasons Danny has illustrated. Now at this point, Jake seems to have admitted that but he is in the process of saying that arbitration may be ok for DL FA's. I think it may be ok for SOME, depending on where you're based and NOT OK for others. Time will tell.............


Hi Luke
You know we probably are more similar in our opions then it appears at the moment. I dont think of myself as a cooliade drinker at all and try to stay abreast of the issues at all times. My only problem with AFA (that I can see at the moment) is the DOH policy. I dont agree that DOH is automatically the most fair. I believe that Danny said in one of his post that he was under the impression that DAL had more senior f/a's than NWA. I'm not sure that is true and who knows after the window for the early outs in june. I just dont want to jump the gun and give away other options if we dont have to. Also I dont think arbitration would be a bad thing for DAL. I'm sorry if you are furstrated by mine and others having issue with DOH but it is because I do research and ask questions. I dont except just what DAL or AFA says, they both have thier own agenda and will be trying to use us for their benefit. Anyway I do enjoy discussing hashing out all of this on line in a non threatening way. Hope you do also.
 
I totaly agree with you Jake, I think arbitrationn as long as it is fair and equitable for both sides is the way to go. I am not sure why some at NW believe that just because we dont have a contract that we will have no rights. Now if we were the ones being aquired... that would be a whole different story. But I feel very confident that arbitration will be better for DL f/a's than DOH.

And what if you are completely wrong? I have seen NW seniorty list and DOH would not be fair to the NW FA's, yet they are willing to follow the letter of their constitution. As Delta FA's we would be recieving a much better placement in the relative seniority intergration. I doubt that any arbitrator would be willing to give them such an unfair shake.

You know the NW FA's are willing to accept DOH because that is what is "Fair" even though they will not prevail in this manner.

When are you going to consider all the other reasons WE need a union?
 
And what if you are completely wrong? I have seen NW seniorty list and DOH would not be fair to the NW FA's, yet they are willing to follow the letter of their constitution. As Delta FA's we would be recieving a much better placement in the relative seniority intergration. I doubt that any arbitrator would be willing to give them such an unfair shake.

You know the NW FA's are willing to accept DOH because that is what is "Fair" even though they will not prevail in this manner.

When are you going to consider all the other reasons WE need a union?
There are some people who care about all parts of the seniority list, not just those at the top. None of us know what the future holds. With the state of the economy and the price of fuel, what happens should the combined company ground all the DC-9's. Who will be furloughed first? a majority of current DL F/A's. It's not about an unfair shake for anyone its about being fair. What people are not looking at is the size of both airlines. DL being larger has afforded most F/A's more opportunity and better flying for years, is it fair that that be taken away from someone who never had the opportunity. In this sense its like comparing apples to oranges. It fair to a NW F/A because if they are commuting now they can commute somewhere else to hold something was never available to a NW F/A. Also, if AFA is elected do you really think we will have a contract by the time this merger is complete and the NMB says we are one work group, I don't. Then what, do you think AFA will continue letting us negotiate our own contract, I don't. We will then have to start all over again for a combined contract. With the announcement last week of the merger, DL F/A's will never have their own contract.
 
There are some people who care about all parts of the seniority list, not just those at the top. None of us know what the future holds. With the state of the economy and the price of fuel, what happens should the combined company ground all the DC-9's. Who will be furloughed first? a majority of current DL F/A's. It's not about an unfair shake for anyone its about being fair. What people are not looking at is the size of both airlines. DL being larger has afforded most F/A's more opportunity and better flying for years, is it fair that that be taken away from someone who never had the opportunity. In this sense its like comparing apples to oranges. It fair to a NW F/A because if they are commuting now they can commute somewhere else to hold something was never available to a NW F/A. Also, if AFA is elected do you really think we will have a contract by the time this merger is complete and the NMB says we are one work group, I don't. Then what, do you think AFA will continue letting us negotiate our own contract, I don't. We will then have to start all over again for a combined contract. With the announcement last week of the merger, DL F/A's will never have their own contract.

If furloughs happen they will happen as they do at any carrier, from the bottom up.....that is what is fair. AFA doesn't "let us" negotiate a contract, that is what we do as AFA members. We are working with NW FA's on this campaign and we are forward thinking enough to negotiate a contract that works for the intergrated work group.

How in your heart of hearts could you think of DOH as unfair? Really? How would you feel right now if you were a NW FA knowing you are going to be slotted in by DOH knowing you are going to lose relative seniority? Yet from what I have seen they are committed to doing the right thing...DOH. If you leave it to arbitration, it may not work to their disadvantage. They have a contract we don't. They are a much more junior work force, would you like to see ratio ranking? Arbitrators may think that is the fair choice to balance the seniority out. They are a unified body with legal protections and budgets that will fight hard against us in arbitration. Who will fight for us? Who is going to pay a for our legal representation?

When we entered into this potential merger, I really felt that the real issue would be around the potential for out sourcing our jobs and we have turned this into a pissing contest over what is fair.
Without a contract it becomes and fair and legal with no take backs or do overs. Do you really want to trust this to a real "Third Party"....arbitrator. I would much rather feel my ass pressed against a chair negotiating a contract that works for us all.

Speculate as we all may, I fear for my future and the future of all that share in my profession for the iniatives that could be brought forth by our management, if we are unrepresented.

You obviously are incredibly bright and well spoken but I can't help but feel you are experiencing a bit of short sightedness. Short Sightedness that could cost us so very much.

Respectfully,

Yankeestu
 
There are some people who care about all parts of the seniority list, not just those at the top. None of us know what the future holds. With the state of the economy and the price of fuel, what happens should the combined company ground all the DC-9's. Who will be furloughed first? a majority of current DL F/A's. It's not about an unfair shake for anyone its about being fair. What people are not looking at is the size of both airlines. DL being larger has afforded most F/A's more opportunity and better flying for years, is it fair that that be taken away from someone who never had the opportunity. In this sense its like comparing apples to oranges. It fair to a NW F/A because if they are commuting now they can commute somewhere else to hold something was never available to a NW F/A. Also, if AFA is elected do you really think we will have a contract by the time this merger is complete and the NMB says we are one work group, I don't. Then what, do you think AFA will continue letting us negotiate our own contract, I don't. We will then have to start all over again for a combined contract. With the announcement last week of the merger, DL F/A's will never have their own contract.

Best of luck!! it will be a long long time before NW flies on Delta metal, take from LCC it will be 3yrs since the merger and we a much smaller company and we are still ran as two separate airlines. I have been prayer for 2yrs+ to tranfer to PHX from PHL but today I have given up hope. :huh:
 
There are some people who care about all parts of the seniority list, not just those at the top. None of us know what the future holds. With the state of the economy and the price of fuel, what happens should the combined company ground all the DC-9's. Who will be furloughed first? a majority of current DL F/A's. It's not about an unfair shake for anyone its about being fair. What people are not looking at is the size of both airlines. DL being larger has afforded most F/A's more opportunity and better flying for years, is it fair that that be taken away from someone who never had the opportunity. In this sense its like comparing apples to oranges. It fair to a NW F/A because if they are commuting now they can commute somewhere else to hold something was never available to a NW F/A. Also, if AFA is elected do you really think we will have a contract by the time this merger is complete and the NMB says we are one work group, I don't. Then what, do you think AFA will continue letting us negotiate our own contract, I don't. We will then have to start all over again for a combined contract. With the announcement last week of the merger, DL F/A's will never have their own contract.

Jake--"better flying" is subjective. I know you may not have considered this, but not all FAs are interested in International flying...the body clock changes/flying all night, the extra work for a buck more an hour, the expense on the layovers, the being so far away from home if you have a sick parent or child...many reasons.

And let me ask you this: how come when I pose questions on this board, some on your side of the argument never answer them. You do pretty well but you've never acknowledged the other reasons some DL FAs want a union...As Yankeestu also posed. (What about the drug-testing debaucle of 2000??)
You also have not answered if you have experienced a merger before. I've posed the question to get a background on your feelings/experiences. Cajun Flyer says any union but AFA, yet, when I asked her if he/she had done anything to get another union active w/ DL, he/she doesn't answer me. Cajun seems so "short-sighted", he/she is wishing for the merger to fall through so he/she can continue to hold his/her international trip.
My point is that you often say Danny does not provide you with all info, or half info. But your side, apparently, does the same thing. I think it's human nature in order to "win" the debate.
 
Here we go....United has announced furloughs today. They have a defined furlough plan in their contract.

Unlike Delta, where our newly hired LOD FA's are told they are immune, United will go by the seniority list after they offer voluntary furloughs.

What do we have to protect us? Chief Dick's word?

You sitting on the fence had better think twice before allowing our exec's to decide who goes and who stays.
 

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