AFA at Delta goes down in flames...

[Coffee_Tea_Or_Me]

Rumor has it that they may have to declare BK because of the large
war chest they borrowed for this election.

Some need to check their emotions at the log on button ;-)

That is just that -- rumor, and a lie from someone at that.

The AFA has an ETHICAL OBLIGATION to organize the Delta flight attendants IF THEY ASK THEM TO. Is the AFA supposed to ignore the thousands of pleas from Delta flight attendants to bring the AFA to Delta? This was not some kind of infiltration campaign, and the AFA did not spend 5 million of union dues on this. To the person who wrote that, please provide a link or an article that states that. Labor unions ALWAYS budget for organizing campaigns -- it is how a business works. If they did spend that amount, it WAS in their budget.

Again, they have an ETHICAL AND MORAL OBLIGATION to organize other company's flight attendants if they are approached by a number that large.

I suppose if the AFA ignored the 40% (very large number still) who desperately wanted the union, they would be criticized for ignoring them, too?????

 

[BABABOOY]

--I guess the rumor of the AFA raising their dues to cover it arn't true either ...

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Well, logic or not. In union representation elections, the law states that the election can not be certified unless more than 50% of the eligible voters vote. If you have 100 eligible and only 50 vote, no certification. You have to have 51 vote one way or another. This law predates the current Administration in Washington. It doesn't say that the vote is against the union. It says that the election can not be certified, but the result is the same. No union.

According to the APFA (our f/a union here at AA), if another union was able to get enough signatures to force a representation election here at AA (there was some talk several years ago of doing that), and less than 50%+1 of the active f/as voted, we would be left without any representation at all. The NMB would not have been able to certify the APFA or the other union as the bargaining representative.

But, speaking of logic, it's just like our national elections. If you don't vote, in a way you have voted for whoever won. If you had showed up at the polls and voted for the opponent (or as in my case usually, against the eventual winner ), maybe the winner would not have won.

By the way, I know several very senior DL f/as. None of them wants a union. They believe that DL management has their best interests at heart and a union can not get them anything they don't already have (I know. I know. Talk about illogic, but that's they way it is.) They also know that if less than 50%+1 vote, there will be no union regardless of how the actual voters voted. So, only one of them voted, and she voted against AFA.

If AFA has proof that "dead people voted" (not literally), then you should be looking for a new union if they don't take it to court. As you say, that sort of shenanigans is very easy to prove. Again, be very careful about making statements you can't prove.

Let's put this to rest.
It is, obviously, correct that 50%+1 must vote "yes" for the union to be certified.
It is not correct that 60% "voted no" unless you know for a fact that there is not a single FA (or more) that did not vote because they procrastinated thus missing the deadline, want afa but not until after the merger (like cooper), etc...
In keeping in line with the NMB's rules, there is no way to vote "no". So even though it seems 60% did not want afa representation, because that 60% did not take a participatory role and complete an action to indicate their "no" vote, you can never make the case that 60% "voted no". There is no way to vote "no".
The only thing you CAN without a doubt state (because of the participatory action taken) is that 40% definitely voted "yes".

On a slightly different note...I have asked this question before but never received an answer and don't know that I will this time.
JimnTX: Can you provide any insight into why several AA f/a's have visited the Delta board since this election was announced and have clearly laid out their distaste for AFA? Is there a particular circumstance that promped this..did AFA do something to upset some of your group? Is it just that you guys don't like unions that aren't In-House? I'm just mystified by it.
Or is it that the AA f/a posters don't like being in a union? Jim-are you glad you have union representation at AA or do you wish you could decertify it? Do you feel you need it because of AA MGT? If that's the case, if you were to come to DL, would you trust our Mgt team enough to feel you don't need representation?
Sorry for all the questions but I cannot get a handle on you, FAMikey, and the other AA guy whose partner flies for Delta (can't remember his name).

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

That is just that -- rumor, and a lie from someone at that.

The AFA has an ETHICAL OBLIGATION to organize the Delta flight attendants IF THEY ASK THEM TO. Is the AFA supposed to ignore the thousands of pleas from Delta flight attendants to bring the AFA to Delta? This was not some kind of infiltration campaign, and the AFA did not spend 5 million of union dues on this. To the person who wrote that, please provide a link or an article that states that. Labor unions ALWAYS budget for organizing campaigns -- it is how a business works. If they did spend that amount, it WAS in their budget.

Again, they have an ETHICAL AND MORAL OBLIGATION to organize other company's flight attendants if they are approached by a number that large.

I suppose if the AFA ignored the 40% (very large number still) who desperately wanted the union, they would be criticized for ignoring them, too?????

You bring up an interesting point. Throughout this entire campaign, Delta has used this "3rd party" myth to insinuate that Delta is being invaded by "outsiders". They have, through union-busting 101 tactics (read "Confessions of a Union Buster") convinced anti-union Delta f/a's that "outsiders" are trying to come in and take their money. They completely IGNORE the fact that many of the Delta/AFA activists have approached AFA in D.C. This campaign would NEVER have gotten to a vote IF DELTA F/A'S did not make it happen. AFA could have thrown all the money around in the world, but if DELTA FA activists didn't perform actions to make it happen, it would never have gotten to a vote. Whether you agree with them or not, they deserve some respect for the countless hours of their personal time they volunteered. I may not agree with the views of particular politicians but I do respect that their volunteers believe so much in them that they give so freely of their time.
So to all the anti-AFA, anti-union DL posters here---remember that the person you work with on the cart, the one who--God forbid--may have your back in an emergency is not an outsider. They are 40% of your peers. Many made this happen because they believed in it...and still do. Again, it is a business decision based on the fact that they feel they should have a contract in their work life, just like the vendors who deal with Delta have and just like you have with your auto insurance co, mortgage co, etc...

 

[jimntx]

LukeSkyWalker: Perhaps you could show me where I showed any distaste (your word, not mine) for unions in general or the AFA in particular. As I said, I know several senior DL f/as. I know they do not want a union, period. I know that some of them specifically did not vote hoping that the total would be less than 50%+1. I was just curious as to the outcome.

By the way, on a PUBLIC bulletin board, access to individual threads is not limited to just those who happen to be directly affected by the topic. If you don't like the PUBLIC having access to a PUBLIC bulletin board, perhaps you would be willing to fund and maintain a PRIVATE bulletin board for DL f/as only. Then you could also deny access to any NW f/as who happen to disagree with you.

As far as the APFA, since I am a junior f/a at AA, I doubt I would notice much difference if I were suddenly non-represented. I expect to be thrown under the bus again this Fall in order to maintain senior perks.

 

[cooper43]

You bring up an interesting point. Throughout this entire campaign, Delta has used this "3rd party" myth to insinuate that Delta is being invaded by "outsiders". They have, through union-busting 101 tactics (read "Confessions of a Union Buster") convinced anti-union Delta f/a's that "outsiders" are trying to come in and take their money. They completely IGNORE the fact that many of the Delta/AFA activists have approached AFA in D.C. This campaign would NEVER have gotten to a vote IF DELTA F/A'S did not make it happen. AFA could have thrown all the money around in the world, but if DELTA FA activists didn't perform actions to make it happen, it would never have gotten to a vote. Whether you agree with them or not, they deserve some respect for the countless hours of their personal time they volunteered. I may not agree with the views of particular politicians but I do respect that their volunteers believe so much in them that they give so freely of their time.
So to all the anti-AFA, anti-union DL posters here---remember that the person you work with on the cart, the one who--God forbid--may have your back in an emergency is not an outsider. They are 40% of your peers. Many made this happen because they believed in it...and still do. Again, it is a business decision based on the fact that they feel they should have a contract in their work life, just like the vendors who deal with Delta have and just like you have with your auto insurance co, mortgage co, etc...

Hi Luke

I totally agree that we all need to respect one another. Each of us have opinions and views, and different things are important to different people. I struggled over whether or not to vote this time, it was a really hard decision to make. You know that I support AFA but just not DOH. I too want union representation but didnt agree with AFA on this particular issue. If I am wrong please correct me but I believe now there will be an elected group of DAL f/a's and a NWA AFA group that will sit down and talk about what would be the most fair way to intergrate seniority. I hope and want to believe that when they sit down that both sides can discuss rationally and come up with a plan. This was my biggest concern about the merger with NWA. I just wanted a process for this to happen. Now I will most likely support whatever this group decides. If they determine after close examination that DOH is the best for both sides I will be on board. Voting for AFA before would have bypassed this process and that would not be fair. Anyway I hope there isnt any hard feelings and we can all come together and make this happen.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

LukeSkyWalker: Perhaps you could show me where I showed any distaste (your word, not mine) for unions in general or the AFA in particular. As I said, I know several senior DL f/as. I know they do not want a union, period. I know that some of them specifically did not vote hoping that the total would be less than 50%+1. I was just curious as to the outcome.

By the way, on a PUBLIC bulletin board, access to individual threads is not limited to just those who happen to be directly affected by the topic. If you don't like the PUBLIC having access to a PUBLIC bulletin board, perhaps you would be willing to fund and maintain a PRIVATE bulletin board for DL f/as only. Then you could also deny access to any NW f/as who happen to disagree with you.

As far as the APFA, since I am a junior f/a at AA, I doubt I would notice much difference if I were suddenly non-represented. I expect to be thrown under the bus again this Fall in order to maintain senior perks.

Jim, I never implied that AA f/a's should not be able to post on the Delta board. Please show me where I believe their posts should be censored.
I was merely asking why the animosity towards AFA from the few who do post here. Maybe I misread your previous posts, but it seemed as though you were anti-AFA. If not, my apologies.
However, in reading your post above, you seem to have a mighty large chip on your shoulder...quite defensive. I was simply asking for your possible insight into some of your peers coming on this board and urging DL FAs to not vote...I was trying to perhaps get some information in a historical context since, obviously, I don't work for AA.
Again, I believe all should participate in the discussion. That's different from questioning why someone feels the way they do as evidenced by their posts. It could be anything from "APFA has consistently had better contracts than AFA" to "an AFA rep dated my sister and dumped her"..I mean, this inquiring mind wants to know, that's all.
I feel these boards should be a place to exchange ideas and information, not just a means to bloviate.

 

[BABABOOY]

There's gloating (I assume my gloating was my prediction of being off by 2%)
and then there is just downright bad taste. There is a picture on a new thread that I
will not post on because it will just garner more attention. I hope others will do the
same and it will just go away. note it's not from a Delta employee. Despite what
some people may think, I believe the Delta employees did work hard for what they believed.

 

[jimntx]

Sorry, Luke. Misinterpreted your post. If you go to the US Airways threads and you post anything that suggests that LCC is less than perfect--though the shortcomings are the favorite topic of the employees--you get told to stay off "their" board.

I haven't a clue why others are so anti-AFA, if in fact they are. Maybe it's the DOH thing. Lord knows, we don't seem to believe in that over here at AA.

I have told my friends at DL and told them until I am blue in the face that one of these days the lack of a union was going to jump up and bite them in the behind. They are all 30+ year f/as. They believe that Papa Delta is going to take care of them the way he always has. They refuse to admit that the war is over and the Yankees have taken over the plantation. On the downbeat...
"Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte. Charlotte, don't you cry."

(By the way, yes I can make fun with the Old South analogy. I grew up next door in Alabama. )

 

[FA Mikey]

On a slightly different note...I have asked this question before but never received an answer and don't know that I will this time.
JimnTX: Can you provide any insight into why several AA f/a's have visited the Delta board since this election was announced and have clearly laid out their distaste for AFA? Is there a particular circumstance that promped this..did AFA do something to upset some of your group? Is it just that you guys don't like unions that aren't In-House? I'm just mystified by it.
Or is it that the AA f/a posters don't like being in a union? Jim-are you glad you have union representation at AA or do you wish you could decertify it? Do you feel you need it because of AA MGT? If that's the case, if you were to come to DL, would you trust our Mgt team enough to feel you don't need representation?
Sorry for all the questions but I cannot get a handle on you, FAMikey, and the other AA guy whose partner flies for Delta (can't remember his name).

Its an opinion and everyone has one. Sorry we all cannot agree on everything. I have pointed out a number of times my feeling and the failings of AFA. I havent heard of anyone calling to decertify any FA unions. But it should be painfully clear that the majority of DAL FA's are saying thanks, no thanks.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Its an opinion and everyone has one. Sorry we all cannot agree on everything. I have pointed out a number of times my feeling and the failings of AFA. I havent heard of anyone calling to decertify any FA unions. But it should be painfully clear that the majority of DAL FA's are saying thanks, no thanks.

OK, that's kind of a short, pat answer. I understand that in the sake of time (we all have too little of) you sort of abbreviated. Please forgive me as my memory banks are not firing that well today, could you, in a nutshell, tell me, and I mean this seriously, so as to compare an in-house vs. AFA, what advantages your APFA contract has over Northwest's, Alaska's or United's?
Thanks.
(and if you're not for ANY union--including APFA--that would make sense too.)

 

[FA Mikey]

OK, that's kind of a short, pat answer. I understand that in the sake of time (we all have too little of) you sort of abbreviated. Please forgive me as my memory banks are not firing that well today, could you, in a nutshell, tell me, and I mean this seriously, so as to compare an in-house vs. AFA, what advantages your APFA contract has over Northwest's, Alaska's or United's?
Thanks.
(and if you're not for ANY union--including APFA--that would make sense too.)

Although this is not the place for a discussion about afa and apfa. I will say this much, having been in a union my entire career, spanning 3 different jobs. I am not anti union. I have become anti-afa. Their leadership, negotiation tactics, and union fiscal responsibility.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Although this is not the place for a discussion about afa and apfa. I will say this much, having been in a union my entire career, spanning 3 different jobs. I am not anti union. I have become anti-afa. Their leadership, negotiation tactics, and union fiscal responsibility.

Why wouldn't THIS be a place to discuss it? After all, the subject matter is FA unions.
Sounds like you are more of a proponent of your In-house union.
I mean, if you don't want to discuss the benefits of APFA/an inhouse union over AFA, then you're just posting on here as..what?...a warning to Delta FAs about AFA? I just don't see members of other FA unions coming on message boards and trashing one union without talking up the benefits of their own. I mean, if you can't quickly name a few benefits of having APFA over AFA , then why not speak out against all unions?
Is your basic point that AFA should not be spending their members' dues money on trying to entice Delta FAs into their union? That would be an answer I could understand.
You have a hit-and-run style to your postings. So if we aren't familiar with you, we don't understand your motivation. That's all I'm trying to get across.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Up here in good ol' Beantown(BOS) we had an ol' sayin'......"The RED COATS are coming....The RED COATS are Coming"

BUT down in ATL, the New Battle Cry is................"The RED TAILS are Coming.....the RED TAILS are coming "


Bottom line, for you progressive DL Pro-Union F/A's ??

RELAX !!

Everything will turn out OK for you.

But a word of Caution.

DIRTY "DICK" Anderson, will "try" to use the oldest TRICK in the book, by PRETENDING to be on your side, by "helping YOU"(GOD FORBID) in your "most likely battle" of DOH, against the RED TAILS.

His ULTIMATE goal, will be to "try" to get ENOUGH DL F/a's to say,......"Aw screw it. I'd rather keep my seniority with a NON UNION F/a group, there fore DEFEATING ANY chance that the(current) 40% of DL, and "95"% of RED TAILS wind up with NO UNION !!

BE VERY-VERY Careful !!!!

 

[700UW]

Lets see the APFA caved to AA when AA wasnt in chapter 11 and revoted or extended the deadline to get concessions passed, hmm real impressive.

At least with the AFA at US, NW and UA, those carriers were in chapter 11 and the unions were forced into negotiations and had to take concessions, cant say the same about the APFA, can you?

Last time I checked the DOL has not removed the leader of the AFA, unlike the APFA when your former President rigged an election and refused to step down until the DOL got involved.

That is real stellar leadership, isnt it?