Airline, Attendants Ready For Concession Talks

[mweiss]

America West is based in PHX. The cost of living in the North East is much higher than in the midwest. Don't think you guys thought of that.

Um...(checking my map again)...PHX appears to be a couple thousand miles from any state considered to be part of the midwest.

And the cost of living in PHX, while much lower than, say, SEA, is comparable to PIT and CLT. The Valley of the Sun has had a great deal of growth in the past decade. And have you looked at the cost of housing in, say, LAS? HP has a base there, too, ya know.

 

[mweiss]

And just who may I ask makes the rules of the "what is, of the game?

Well, that answer can be simplified to MrAeroMan's answer, but I'll elaborate. There are many factors responsible for those rules:

1) Our national government, who has chosen, based in no small part on a long history of voter support, to have the United States economy be primarily based on capitalism.
2) Our national culture, which promotes individualism over the social collective.
3) Our nation's consumers' purchasing behavior, focused on direct value (i.e., what I receive directly for my dollars), to the exclusion of the overall social behavior (ref: #2 above)
4) Fundamental Keynesian economic forces, whereby all economic parties attempt to maximize their increase in utility from all transactions, to the extent that their powers allow.

The United States is almost universally described as the least socialistic of all industrial nations. What you are living is one of the consequences of this.

 

[PITbull]

There's a significant difference from your analogy, though:

There are many "dependent children," if you will, who actually want to continue to receive the income that comes from the patient's continued survival. With the real car crash, continued survival means more costs.

Thus, killing the patient, even with euthanistic intent, robs the choice from those who would otherwise choose to linger under lower wage conditions.

Mweiss,

Under your analogy, you are substatiating the inhumaneness of what is going on at U.

To keep a patient lingering whlie the hospitals and doctors bleed the insurance companies along with some families who would like to take advantage for income, and leave a loved one suffering is, IMO, the most despecable actions of humanity.

In that same vein....

By making the comparison in Bear 96's analogy, you imply and bring light that in U's situation that one should embrace this type of character and actions as a noble thing for the sake of those who may profit in Corporate America on the backs of the sacrificing and continued suffering of the employees.

The choosing of ones destiny will be up to the employee. No amount of guilt applied will impact us now. Keep in the forefront of your mind, that the employees had less of a hand in the "state of U", and are not responsible for its present condition.

 

[PITbull]

Um...(checking my map again)...PHX appears to be a couple thousand miles from any state considered to be part of the midwest.

And the cost of living in PHX, while much lower than, say, SEA, is comparable to PIT and CLT. The Valley of the Sun has had a great deal of growth in the past decade. And have you looked at the cost of housing in, say, LAS? HP has a base there, too, ya know.

Mweisss,

PIT will be a focus city as outlined in the new "plan".

CLT will remain a banking hub.

The "plan" calls for a build up of PHL, LGA, BOS and DCA. These are bases.

How is PHX compared to these cities in cost of living (housing and such), pray tell.

Go ahead....and go there.

 

[mweiss]

The "plan" calls for a build up of PHL, LGA, BOS and DCA. These are bases.

How is PHX compared to these cities in cost of living (housing and such), pray tell.

I don't know enough about the cost of living in PHL to comment there. Commuting to LGA from, say, Putnam County, or to DCA from many parts of eastern Virginia would make the cost of living comparable to LAS. BOS is problematic, though.

 

[mweiss]

Under your analogy, you are substatiating the inhumaneness of what is going on at U.

Not my analogy. That's Bear's. And let's examine that "inhumaneness," shall we?

To keep a patient lingering whlie the hospitals and doctors bleed the insurance companies along with some families who would like to take advantage for income, and leave a loved one suffering is, IMO, the most despecable actions of humanity.

Agreed. However, US Airways is not a living being, and thus has no feelings, physical or emotional. Thus, the airline can "suffer" until eternity, but that's just anthropomorphism.

By making the comparison in Bear 96's analogy, you imply and bring light that in U's situation that one should embrace this type of character and actions as a noble thing for the sake of those who may profit in Corporate America on the backs of the sacrificing and continued suffering of the employees.

No, you inferred that. My implication is that, unlike with true family, you have the option of removing yourself from US Airways if you are suffering. If you are suffering, and you choose to take the income away from someone else who is not suffering, just because you are unwilling to remove yourself from the situation, then you are acting with the utmost of selfishness.

The choosing of ones destiny will be up to the employee.

But that's just it. If 50% +1 of the employees choose to shut the airline down, then the 50% -1 of the employees who wanted to keep their income no longer have the option. This is not a vote over whether to keep current levels of income or reduce them. This is a vote over whether to have zero income or a reduction in income. The results are vastly different.

 

[PITbull]

Mweiss,

For one who talks about "capitalistism" and capitalistic thinking....your version above is extremely "socialistic" IMO.

The Industry is in peril because there is just too much capacity. Too many carriers in a crowded market place of astronomical fuel prices that has gone "aray", and unrealistic expectations of the consumer.

Although, my deep feeling about U is not to be the one that fails, one who is sitting on the sidlines " would rationally think, a couple of legacy carriers really need to go.

Have I told you lately, you are very irritating? For some "one-a-be-employee", you can have the job, but my vote remains "no". Why? Because I'm here, and your not, and the person who may think they want the job on the street has nothing invested here. the capitalistic Corporate Raiders are here, and there needs to be an "adjustment".
The market place may believe that the consumer dictates the market place. However, the worker is in that equation.

If to run an airline is reduced to only volunteers who contribute for "charity" or for very little wage, and come to the work place to operate the business in order to give the consumer what it wants (the lowest fare)....you would have no workers, no quality service, therefore, the consumer would not be able to fly no matter what they demanded.

Hey, I want cheap fuel for my car too, and there is plenty of competition, but you notice, we pay "top dog" prices now don't we all.

That's my logic.

 

[Bear96]

There's a significant difference from your analogy, though:

There are many "dependent children," if you will, who actually want to continue to receive the income that comes from the patient's continued survival. With the real car crash, continued survival means more costs.

Thus, killing the patient, even with euthanistic intent, robs the choice from those who would otherwise choose to linger under lower wage conditions.

Point taken.

But you are making the assumption that the patient can be kept alive indefinitely, or even eventually recover and not need to be in the ICU anymore. I don't think that is the case.

The healthy thing for the "dependent children" to do is to let go, stop hoping for a miracle, and get on with their lives, instead of sobbing by the side of the bed thinking, "Maybe just one more organ transplant will finally do the trick!"

 

[ktflyhome]

It would be interesting to know, just how many of us out there have dependant children. I would guess there are many senarios. I have flown with many, without children and many with grown children. I have flown with many, many Pilots who are on their 3rd marriage with some 20 something year old and guess what???? They are on their 3rd round of babies. There are many, many single F/A's. I think the threat of putting dependants in this equation, for many is just not gonna fly.

 

[Peeky]

Can anyone clarify?

1. U is continually being compared to SW since they appear to be the biggest threat now. However, U management doesn't want to pay their rates...they want America West/ Air Tran/ Jet Blue level?

2. U honored Mr. Seigel's and Mr. Cohen's contract which payed them approx. $4.5 million and $1.2 million, respectively, just to resign? In the not-so-distant-past, Mr. Wolf and Gangwall approx. $15 million, and $6million in "retention" bonuses for VPs. Yet U cannot honor the two concessionary agreements they have already received from employees for the term of the contracts. They want labor to give up YET more.

3. Didn't the recent proxy statement sent out to stockholders have items (# 3 and #4) which would award MORE stock options and MORE bonuses to upper management?

:angry:

 

[mweiss]

The healthy thing for the "dependent children" to do is to let go, stop hoping for a miracle, and get on with their lives, instead of sobbing by the side of the bed thinking, "Maybe just one more organ transplant will finally do the trick!"

As true as that likely is, why should you be permitted to make that choice on behalf of your coworkers?

That's the crux of my point.

 

[BoeingBoy]

mweiss,

Because that's how a democracy works (although ALPA was a monarchy for a while). 50%+1 of the electorial votes determines who'll be president - no matter how I vote. 50%+1 of the members of my wife's investment club decides what to buy & sell.

Jim

 

[mweiss]

For one who talks about "capitalistism" and capitalistic thinking....your version above is extremely "socialistic" IMO.

In what way? What characteristics are in line with socialism?

one who is sitting on the sidlines " would rationally think, a couple of legacy carriers really need to go.

I'm sitting on the sidelines and I think a couple of carriers do need to go, though they don't have to be legacies.

Have I told you lately, you are very irritating?

Coming from you in this context, that must mean I'm doing something right.

For some "one-a-be-employee", you can have the job, but my vote remains "no". Why? Because I'm here, and your not, and the person who may think they want the job on the street has nothing invested here.

Heh. You think I want to work for US? Pack up my things and move to DC only to lose my job a few months later when the company folds? YGBFKM!

The market place may believe that the consumer dictates the market place. However, the worker is in that equation.

The market is determined by the fit between the sellers' offerings and the buyers' interests. In that sense, given that the buyers' interests are typically predetermined, thus forcing the sellers to change their offerings to match the buyers' interests, the buyers do define the market.

If ... an airline is reduced to only volunteers ... the consumer would not be able to fly no matter what they demanded.

And that airline would then fold, to be replaced by one that gives the customers what they want at the most competitive price.

Hey, I want cheap fuel for my car too, and there is plenty of competition, but you notice, we pay "top dog" prices now don't we all.

For the same reason that we were paying "top dog" air prices in 1999. Demand for fuel is rising much faster than supply. One difference, of course, is the collusive behavior of OPEC, which the airlines are legally precluded from doing. But the price of gasoline in the US is mostly a function of a sharply rising global demand.

That's my logic.

Given the scattershot nature of your post, I hope it's not.

 

[mweiss]

Jim,

I'm not disagreeing that democracy works in this way. I'm suggesting that those who are planning to vote with the intent of shutting the company down are doing so selfishly and spitefully.

 

[PHLfa88]

I was polled and want to know if anyone else was and how many questions they were asked B)