American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[Racer X]

The IAM should've stepped aside, and US air guys should have lived under the TWU contract, good or bad. After all they got all of their seniority when they were merged. Then they would've had to live under the TWU contract. You guys have the same situation as far as seeing something to vote on we did with AMFA at SWA. There are 4 ALRs , the majority of them have to sign off on a T/A before it can be presented.

EVERYONE carried their current seniority into the association per the Javitz decision.

 

[Racer X]

no worries...2nd time you took me for a rah-rah - fook lus & the iam, laa guy.

i'm asking a question that might anger some. to me, it's a fair question, whether it's an easy or difficult question to answer.

bottom line, the discrepancies had to be eliminated in 2014 with your standalone. since they weren't, now the complications arise and have to be dealt with, only compounding other complications (aa's stinginess).

if those discrepancies were eliminated in 2014, i'd like to think the assoc. would have no other choice but to be pulling on the same end of the rope since dec. 2015.

Keeping score? LOL

 

[NYer]

What other areas are you referring to? We shouldn’t lose anywhere....not in this day and age.
The only way we lose is if we don’t stand together....You know what they say about a chain and it’s weakest link...ONE Weak link and the strength of the entire chain is compromised.
Stay strong and stay unified!!! We can win this if we do!!!!

Impossible. The TWU side has already taken a step back in the number of steps it takes to reach top pay. The CS/Swap will be seen as another step back only because it is less liberal than what they're used to (the fact it is contractual language notwithstanding). The OT language is also a step backward in the eyes of the members and especially in MIA. If we get a 40% PT limit, that would also be another step backward. The Grievance process will be a step backward for the TWU.

Let's get away from this facade that this deal will only be sunshine and butterflies because there will be plenty of things either side will not like.

 

[NYer]

I HATE Bullies.

...says a bully. 😕

 

[WeAAsles]

good stuff, you're getting creative. let's hope the assoc. possesses the same creativity...

if it does happen this way, where will the company move the toggle switch? no 6%/5% 401k? no $32.50/hr on DOS?

Well to be fair to the Conversation that’s where the Company screwed up in giving us those 2016 raises outside of a full JCBA. Of course there wouldn’t have been as much of an uproar if the Medical had been attached to that $12,000 year increase. I was told that once they inserted the raises into the Contract they can’t take them back now.

I don’t personally like the idea of anyone holding anyone else hostage and honestly that also includes us holding the Company hostage too. But they should have telegraphed what they’re future expectations were when they agreed to that raise besides the Cross Utilization.

In 2014 as I recall the Company put two caveats into the IAM Standalone agreement that explained their intentions and both the Leadership and Members accepted those caveats with their yes votes. # 1 was the language for Station Staffing. It said “Until a JCBA was reached” which to me was CRYSTAL CLEAR that the 1 Flight per day was never meant to be nothing more than temporary.

# 2 Was language about modifications to one of their Medical Plans if the Cadillac Tax was implemented. One plan would possibly need to be modified or discontinued.

The Company NEVER said anything to the IAM on that 2014 Agreement that they were intent on attempting to discontinue their Medical costs advantage. If it was truly a must have then there would be either a LOA or they would have stipulated a time frame that IAM Members would be placed in the LAA plans and costs.

That’s why there frankly is NO must haves for that Medical expense. It’s more of a like to have or a major play against some future fine print that they want to distract us from. (PT headcount, station staffing, SCOPE, representation?)

 

[WeAAsles]

...says a bully. 😕

I’m not a bully. I’m a counterpuncher. Or a bully to bullies. I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. I was trying to give you constructive criticism. Seriously.

After the Heart Attack and quitting smoking I ballooned up to 215 Lbs Bro. Yesterday morning I was at 203 Lbs. Still got some more I’d like to go down. Putting back into an earlier narrative man being “plump” at our age is not good. All I did was cut back a little on the food, cut back major on Ice Cream and started to walk more again.

NYer seriously I was at the point where I was having a hard time putting on my socks. Lol. All I’m saying is get out and get walking bro. (No bullying)

 

[WeAAsles]

Who said anyone wants an arbitrator? I certainly do NOT want a third party making life impacting decisions for 30,000 members. I believe the assoc has stated something similar slso

The TWU in the formation of the Merger before the Association was formed turned down the “Interest based Arbitration” that the Pilots and FA’s were essentially scammed into accepting.

 

[Racer X]

Impossible. The TWU side has already taken a step back in the number of steps it takes to reach top pay. The CS/Swap will be seen as another step back only because it is less liberal than what they're used to (the fact it is contractual language notwithstanding). The OT language is also a step backward in the eyes of the members and especially in MIA. If we get a 40% PT limit, that would also be another step backward. The Grievance process will be a step backward for the TWU.

Let's get away from this facade that this deal will only be sunshine and butterflies because there will be plenty of things either side will not like.

The pt issue is not finalized yet. Doesn’t TWU language say (paraphrasing of course) pt numbers stay the same in 13 cities but can increase on a 1:1 ratio? That would mean the pt% could increase. The pay progression scale to my knowledge is not finalized yet. OT language is a step backwards in what members eyes? Full time LAA? Just with the 2x alone is a Major plus. Ft Giving pt some ot will be a very small compromise in exchange for the gain The grievance procedure is more TWU based than IAM based. And the CS POLICY is subject to change at any time. So contractual language is better.

 

[WeAAsles]

Impossible. The TWU side has already taken a step back in the number of steps it takes to reach top pay. The CS/Swap will be seen as another step back only because it is less liberal than what they're used to (the fact it is contractual language notwithstanding). The OT language is also a step backward in the eyes of the members and especially in MIA. If we get a 40% PT limit, that would also be another step backward. The Grievance process will be a step backward for the TWU.

Let's get away from this facade that this deal will only be sunshine and butterflies because there will be plenty of things either side will not like.

Had to give you a Winner on this one. This was very honest and forthright.

On the wage scale steps I’m sure you know what the Association proposed for that and it’s absolutely not 11 or 12 years.

Yes if the Association does ultimately TA a wage progression that tops out in 11 or 12 years that absolutely even despite the raises is a concession against the TWU 9 year to TOS.

Before even you hired in wasn’t it 5 years to TOS?

 

[gulfcoast1]

I try to understand and respect opinions on both sides here. I am not saying what will or should happen. But I see major problems coming no matter what path is chosen and more division in the end.

I am not sure it would have been different without 2 unions but maybe the wounds would heal faster as the changes might have been more faster than fester. I do see why LUS FT employees with family plans would not want to go to LAA medical. But I also see why I LUS PT employees might want to or might not care. I do not know what the company must haves are but it sounds like they want everyone on the LAA plan.

I can understand why the LUS negotiators would not support bringing anything less than LUS medical back for a vote.

I agree with NYer that going into section 6 without a vote would probably result in all of us on something closer or equal to the LAA plan and probably losing some gains the company has already offered.

I hope the negotiators can pull something out of their hats before September that would result in a better medical plan for all of us, but I think the Association should send out something for a vote before section 6. They can recommend a no vote, but I think in the end we will lose much more than any of us on either side will gain by not having a vote before section 6.

If we do not have a vote, I will understand that it was probably because of the importance of medical care, which is almost as important as job security. I will try not to be bitter about it. I will try to be patient. But I think there are way too many who will not, and I wonder if it is something the Association will ever be able to overcome?

 

[WeAAsles]

We can stand as long and as strong as we'd like but the airline can and will do the same. Give us a viable option to get what we want and let's go, but just saying no until you get what you want is not a viable option.

Section 6 is not in our favor and after about two raises for the other airlines (Dec 2019) we'd be about $2 less an hour or a little over $4,000 per year just on the 2080 hours. So at that point, we're fighting to keep a benefit that saves some $6,000 in additional cost but at the same time, we're not earning at least $4,000 (without even considering the shift differential, the holidays or any other compensation piece).

It doesn't mean we accept just anything that comes our way but we also have to recognize the consequences of not having an agreement. It may be that all the members get unified and we all agree to fight the fight for the sake of principles, but in order for that to happen the Association needs to grab the helm and we're not just updated by individual Locals.

At this point, the information we receive is being shared by individuals and not as one organization. The protests in the summer were TWU, not Association. The updates via video's and letters are from individuals.

Damn I missed this one and to be honest I like this one as well. Another honest and forthright post.

NYer first honestly I wouldn’t publicly telegraph on ANY Social Media platforms what my actual real line in the sand is. You’ve been told that all these pages have eyes on them whether you want to believe that or not. So the whole idea in any good poker match in the end is to figure out just who the hell is really bluffing and who is holding the Aces?

Are there any viable options to get everything we might want (The Moon) of course not. The people who really believe there are have been and always will be nuts. To “Restore and More” I think AA would have to hand you and I a check for over $100,000, put my Pension back where it was, open back up a few dozen cities and etc.

Here’s another thing for you. I’m not in that room even if I do have friends but I can promise you I haven’t turned into some kooky vote no for everything guy. If I get a picture to look at I want to see it all in it’s entirety and I’ll make my decision then.

Just don’t get pissed if I say it’s a no for me like you did the last time. I’m quite capable and smart enough to make my own choices and I prefer on votes they’re respected.

 

[WeAAsles]

I try to understand and respect opinions on both sides here. I am not saying what will or should happen. But I see major problems coming no matter what path is chosen and more division in the end.

I am not sure it would have been different without 2 unions but maybe the wounds would heal faster as the changes might have been more faster than fester. I do see why LUS FT employees with family plans would not want to go to LAA medical. But I also see why I LUS PT employees might want to or might not care. I do not know what the company must haves are but it sounds like they want everyone on the LAA plan.

I can understand why the LUS negotiators would not support bringing anything less than LUS medical back for a vote.

I agree with NYer that going into section 6 without a vote would probably result in all of us on something closer or equal to the LAA plan and probably losing some gains the company has already offered.

I hope the negotiators can pull something out of their hats before September that would result in a better medical plan for all of us, but I think the Association should send out something for a vote before section 6. They can recommend a no vote, but I think in the end we will lose much more than any of us on either side will gain by not having a vote before section 6.

If we do not have a vote, I will understand that it was probably because of the importance of medical care, which is almost as important as job security. I will try not to be bitter about it. I will try to be patient. But I think there are way too many who will not, and I wonder if it is something the Association will ever be able to overcome?

Wow gulfcoast another very good post. Your opinions and points of view are very valid.

BTW I still do agree that if at all possible yes we should have a vote on any “final” offer the Company might trot out before heading into Section 6.

But I also don’t concur that going in to Section 6 is necessarily Shark infested waters even if I’m sure the waves can be quite choppy at times.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

EVERYONE carried their current seniority into the association per the Javitz decision.

sure, technically this is correct.

how did some acquire and accumulate seniority from one side that javits counted and how did some have seniority that didn't count, from another side?

obviously, i don't do a good job of explaining. i'm hoping that maybe a laa guy like weaasles or NYer can explain the issue that i have, much better.

 

[WeAAsles]

The pt issue is not finalized yet. Doesn’t TWU language say (paraphrasing of course) pt numbers stay the same in 13 cities but can increase on a 1:1 ratio? That would mean the pt% could increase. The pay progression scale to my knowledge is not finalized yet. OT language is a step backwards in what members eyes? Full time LAA? Just with the 2x alone is a Major plus. Ft Giving pt some ot will be a very small compromise in exchange for the gain The grievance procedure is more TWU based than IAM based. And the CS POLICY is subject to change at any time. So contractual language is better.

We have a lot of guys here in MIA who like to do holdover so yes adding more people into that mix with the PT is a concession piece for the FT Members. If I’m correct it’s anything “under” 4 hours needed and they can be called?

So I’m wondering could a creative Management team who needs a 4 hour covered say we have 3.7 hours available to get those PT into the mix since they would only be gettng straight time up until 40 hours?

And BTW that 2x for second day off is a DRAMATIC improvement over what we used to have and it might even entice me to occasionally throw my hat in the ring and sacrifice a Weekend. (I bet I could always get Super Bowl Sunday weekend)

 

[PIEDMONT784]

Here is some food for thought for all of you "Must Have" guys...

If Medical was a "must have" for the Airline Business Model, why did LUS simply not take it away in bankruptcy when they could have without our consent?
The very same dude that was running LUS is now running AA. What has changed?
Cadillac Medical should be even less expensive for the combined companies, since larger employee bases ultimatly lower costs. Also, Trump killed Obamacare, so that is even more reason to keep LUS medical for the entire group! Thanks Trump!

The same for Catering, if it was not working in the pre-merger business model for LUS, why did they not take it away in abrogation? The two combined Companies have less competition, more resources, and more net profits than either of the two pre-merger companies combined!

Why were "must haves" post-merger, not "must takes" pre-merger?

>SPIT<