American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[CremaDiLimone]

There would be no winnable grievance. When AA acquired TWA the Company topped all of them out over the objections of those who LAA who were not given the same.

There are Airport minimums where the Company has to match that agreed to municipal rate. And they have also raised the starting pay in locations where they had difficulty getting people to take the job. (DFW late 90’s)

the issue i'm talking about is occupational seniority. there's a winning grievance there, or, hundreds of laa, like me, will get their company time turned to occupational.

no way an envoy guy will see their 'company' time turned to occupational.

as far as pay and $15/hr minimums; either the company is excused because it's not a 'contract' company and eventually offers wages above the current minimum and $15/hr/ or it's union contract with employees trumps any city ordinance.

for aa in ord, this applies to contractors doing our out-sourced work. cabin, mail, fueling, baggage service, bus driving, etc.. these companies now need to approach aa for more money, and hopefully, aa will eventually decide to in-source that work.

that's the road map i'd be looking at.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I've seen more chit people working at AA then I ever saw working at AE.

Prema donna AA MF's!

no one argues that, but the numbers and financial results don't lie.

too much RJ service.

an example is to yyz. no mainline aa to yyz (canadian business mecca) out of ord/jfk/lga/bos. only RJ.

how many premium seats a day vs. united? and united is blowing us away now, earnings-wise. united is telling the world that more premium passengers helped it recoup 90% of last quarter's jet fuel price spike. aa recouped 40%. i wonder why..

oil closed at $58.86/bbl today. this is what aa is relying upon?

 

[WeAAsles]

the issue i'm talking about is occupational seniority. there's a winning grievance there, or, hundreds of laa, like me, will get their company time turned to occupational.

no way an envoy guy will see their 'company' time turned to occupational.

as far as pay and $15/hr minimums; either the company is excused because it's not a 'contract' company and eventually offers wages above the current minimum and $15/hr/ or it's union contract with employees trumps any city ordinance.

for aa in ord, this applies to contractors doing our out-sourced work. cabin, mail, fueling, baggage service, bus driving, etc.. these companies now need to approach aa for more money, and hopefully, aa will eventually decide to in-source that work.

that's the road map i'd be looking at.

I don’t think the Port Authority of NYC let the Airlines get around those minimums even under the RLA Contract language. There were some issues on it over in Jersey that I think since were resolved?

Aside from that though I was talking Company and not occupational. Since they are part of a different bargaining unit from our CBA only a Legal challenge under a full on merger possibly using McCaskill Bond would give them anything. Otherwise our TWU Contract has pretty specific language preventing that happening.

Hey Crema let me ask you again without us getting into too much back and forth on an issue I think we pretty much covered in the past (I get senile sometimes)

When you were in fueling were you under the Maintenance Class and Craft as recognized by the NMB?

 

[737823]

There would be no winnable grievance. When AA acquired TWA the Company topped all of them out over the objections of those who LAA who were not given the same.

There are Airport minimums where the Company has to match that agreed to municipal rate. And they have also raised the starting pay in locations where they had difficulty getting people to take the job. (DFW late 90’s)

Same TWA where the nAAtive agents (unorganized) got 100% occupational seniority and TWA (IAM represented) got 4/10/2001?

Josh

 

[737823]

not always true. Airport minimums are superceded by "National" union contracts which keeps the minimum far below the "minimum".
I worked with reporters to expose this, and some newspapers wrote about it.

Like McGee in SEA

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

no one argues that, but the numbers and financial results don't lie.

too much RJ service.

an example is to yyz. no mainline aa to yyz (canadian business mecca) out of ord/jfk/lga/bos. only RJ.

how many premium seats a day vs. united? and united is blowing us away now, earnings-wise. united is telling the world that more premium passengers helped it recoup 90% of last quarter's jet fuel price spike. aa recouped 40%. i wonder why..

oil closed at $58.86/bbl today. this is what aa is relying upon?

Do you think that over time some of those RJ Flights will be shifted over to Mainline as AA takes delivery of new jets?

Their order book is still showing over 200 planes yet to be delivered even if they have announced deferring a few.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_fleet

 

[Tim Nelson]

Like McGee in SEA

Josh

Actually, yes. I worked with D Gates on that one. He couldnt believe it. He actually wronte a nice article in the Seattle paper that the $15 wage didnt apply.
The iam lied to him but things changed when i showed him some confidential info from alaska.

 

[WeAAsles]

Actually, yes. I worked with D Gates on that one. He couldnt believe it. He actually wronte a nice article in the Seattle paper that the $15 wage didnt apply.
The iam lied to him but things changed when i showed him some confidential info from alaska.

“Mr” Nelson if you want people to read the article you should consider posting it along with your comment. Oh and BTW if you actually read the article rather than just mentioning it you would read that that the minimum was waived in two other locations as well.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...-as-sea-tac-law-leaves-a-confusing-patchwork/

Now any chance you may have something new or original to discuss here?

 

[Colonel.Ramp]

Colonel how many Ramp members are their currently TWU represented in those LAA Hub locations? At one point I know the number was about 5000?

So now in those LAA Hubs I assume CWA Represents upstairs and TWU Represents downstairs and CWA has captured roughly another 100 cities.

Do we know how many more cities may have people wearing Envoy shirts and are not represented or are all covered now?

Probably a bit above 6000 or so. Your are exact about CWA capturing more cities upstairs with TWU grabbing the ramp. They are trying to include 6 more stations to bring the total to 13 TWU cities.

 

[Colonel.Ramp]

the latest doa stats from august of 2018, say that envoy air is still last in MBR. 6.21 bags per 1,000 passengers. dl's is 1.94 and aa is at 4.34. ua is at 3.15.

it's a customer service issue along with the money hit.

as far as reliability and dependability, envoy is 15th out of 17, with 4.5% of operations cancelled. dl was at 0.2% and aa at 1.8%.

when dl and ua tell us that they recaptured a huge part of 2018 jet fuel price spike by increasing fares and more premium passengers...the above tell me why those carriers earned more money than us. aa grudgingly told analysts that it 'only' recouped 40% of q3's jet fuel price hike.

only so many premium seats on RJs and aa, as much as aa avoids fuel hedging, they have hedged too much on RJ flying.

Crema you have to remember we have very little Envoy or regional flying here. So we are rated on mostly our mainline flights with only a handful of regional flying.

 

[Colonel.Ramp]

Actually if anyone really wanted to be fair and honest about it groups like Envoy, DGS, UGS, Swissport, Ready Reserve and others are all part of a Caste system.

We at the Mainline who are at TOS stand on all those shoulders to be able to make/earn the wages and benefits that we currently enjoy.

I honestly think the tightening of the Labor Market though is going to cause further erosion of that business model being able to continue?

As you stated in another writing why would anyone tolerate this occasionally back breaking work if they can make the same pay and benefits at Mc Donald’s? The fight for $15 is working spectacularly and Airport minimums in some cities are going beyond even that wage want.

I think more stations and work are going to come over to the mainline units over time but the Company will keep the 12 year pay scale and offer occasional buy outs to keep their Labor costs as low as they possibly can?

I agree with you. With the unionization of ground crews around the US and places like home (Port Authority) raising minimums to $19, the model will change. Delta is insourcing more so I see a trend slowly going back into the mainline fold.

 

[Colonel.Ramp]

Flow through means you have to take their chit people too,screw that maybe company time for vacation but that's that

Al both sides have those kinds of workers. Let's be real. I've been stationed at a hub city and can tell you stories. Let's not get holier than thou.

 

[AANOTOK]

Al both sides have those kinds of workers. Let's be real. I've been stationed at a hub city and can tell you stories. Let's not get holier than thou.

Nothing more than a reflection of society...

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I don’t think the Port Authority of NYC let the Airlines get around those minimums even under the RLA Contract language. There were some issues on it over in Jersey that I think since were resolved?

Aside from that though I was talking Company and not occupational. Since they are part of a different bargaining unit from our CBA only a Legal challenge under a full on merger possibly using McCaskill Bond would give them anything. Otherwise our TWU Contract has pretty specific language preventing that happening.

Hey Crema let me ask you again without us getting into too much back and forth on an issue I think we pretty much covered in the past (I get senile sometimes)

When you were in fueling were you under the Maintenance Class and Craft as recognized by the NMB?

from what i understood when the city here made this a big deal, it only dealt with contractors of airlines (all airlines, let's say the company that does aa bus service or the cabin cleaners for an air france) and those working in gift shops/food service. companies/franchises that did business with the city to get these lucrative spots in an intl. airport. currently, i believe the minimum is $13.45/hr and must be $15/hr by 2020.

as far as me? i wasn't a fueler. i worked for amr...different local. fuelers i know, were represented by 512 and paid dues to 512. these guys have more of a beef than me. at this moment, i couldn't tell you what class/craft the fuelers were. i can find out.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Crema you have to remember we have very little Envoy or regional flying here. So we are rated on mostly our mainline flights with only a handful of regional flying.

ok, that's iah. unfortunately, the numbers are what they are and the dot/flying public that complains don't want to see an asterisk.

my contention is that aa does too much regional jet flying and is missing out on the premium passengers that dl and ua are cleaning up on.