American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[CremaDiLimone]

Regional routes are what saved US Airways. It's not so much the amount of regional flying as it is not having a balanced mix of flights.

regional routes saved us air? i worked for and work for aa.

i gave you an example of yyz, that even a regional yield analyst admitted that i had a "strong argument". her argument was 'aircraft utilization'. ok, i'm sure that ua has the same issue and the fact that last quarter; ua pulled in less revenue, but more income, tells me they have their route system tuned much sharper...especially premium seats between business centers. yyz is canada's business center and all we have are RJs flying there.

there are also times in high oil times where RJs are losers as soon as they push back - due to the fact that RJs can't pull in the same revenue as a mainline jet; more premium seats, freight/mail.

oil is down another $2+ dollars today, looks more likely to get to $55/bbl than $60/bbl and all that does is paper over the cracks of aa's problems.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I’m sorry don’t know how I got it confused that I thought you were a fueler in the past.

My friend here was also with AMR services humping bags for the Sky Caps back in LGA. He was there for 3 years and that time did not reflect for any occupational Seniority when he joined us on the ramp.

BTW if Fuelers were a part of the Maintenance Class and Craft then that’s the reason why they didn’t gain any Fleet time while they performed that work.

those from amr who got hired for passenger service, got to keep all. passenger service wasn't union at the time, so, they just slotted them in by company time, or date of hire.

everyone else that went to the ramp, regardless of former position in the company, lumped it. it was an intra-american thing. yes, some fuelers have been grumbling loudly since 1991. that's all intra-american.

to me, the problem is when the laa and lus seniority lists merge with a contract, is that some on lus side will keep DOH, even if it was with another airline entity that wasn't lus, unlike us. i believe that lus didn't have union representation until the mid 90s, so...no union seniority legal hurdles to jump with mergers or acquisitions that involved lus prior to the mid 90s?

ok..so, my argument isn't about laa in 1987 or 1989 or 1991, it's about now. the twu should have done better prior to agreeing to the assoc. either no one keeps DOH (like laa) or everyone keeps DOH (like lus).

there are some fuelers that still go to meetings and complain. at laa, i only brought this up to one local president, probably 28 years ago. he was basically, "tough $hit". i lumped it.

if i'm wrong here, correct me.

 

[WeAAsles]

regional routes saved us air? i worked for and work for aa.

Actually Crema we work for AAG or the American Airlines “Group” We’ve always worked for a group when you consider the History. So it all plays in together.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_Airlines

those from amr who got hired for passenger service, got to keep all. passenger service wasn't union at the time, so, they just slotted them in by company time, or date of hire.

everyone else that went to the ramp, regardless of former position in the company, lumped it. it was an intra-american thing. yes, some fuelers have been grumbling loudly since 1991. that's all intra-american.

to me, the problem is when the laa and lus seniority lists merge with a contract, is that some on lus side will keep DOH, even if it was with another airline entity that wasn't lus, unlike us. i believe that lus didn't have union representation until the mid 90s, so...no union seniority legal hurdles to jump with mergers or acquisitions that involved lus prior to the mid 90s?

ok..so, my argument isn't about laa in 1987 or 1989 or 1991, it's about now. the twu should have done better prior to agreeing to the assoc. either no one keeps DOH (like laa) or everyone keeps DOH (like lus).

there are some fuelers that still go to meetings and complain. at laa, i only brought this up to one local president, probably 28 years ago. he was basically, "tough $hit". i lumped it.

if i'm wrong here, correct me.

I’ve always thought the Seniority debate was a no winner since we can all have different thoughts on it especially if it directly affects us in any dramatic way.

As with a lot of topics that are controversial and done and even those that absolutely did directly affect me (2001, 2003) I prefer to just go with the flow and for lack of a better term “Count my blessings” instead of dwelling.

No one can lasso the wind.

 

[Talos]

Interesting article from the Cranky Flier blog that touches on some issues with AA's network, as well as some of the points Crema DiLemone has been making:

https://crankyflier.com/2018/11/12/so-just-what-is-wrong-with-american/



FWIW, fuelers at UA were considered part of the maintenance class and craft. Rampers did the work (both ramp and AMT's were IAM). When the AMT's left the IAM for AMFA, the rampers lost that work. I believe it was then outsourced most places (if not everywhere)?

Crankyflier article makes some points, but as for issues with AA I have to point the finger at mgmt. This is a much bigger airline than they were used to, and in all fairness this was the last merger behind United and Delta. Even at that I wonder about Parker and team being up to the task.

 

[ALUS78]

Al both sides have those kinds of workers. Let's be real. I've been stationed at a hub city and can tell you stories. Let's not get holier than thou.

Good and bad with both but the younger kids act up more especially when they dont have someone to tell them to knock it off.Just human nature no one better than the other

 

[Kev3188]

ok..so, my argument isn't about laa in 1987 or 1989 or 1991, it's about now. the twu should have done better prior to agreeing to the assoc. either no one keeps DOH (like laa) or everyone keeps DOH (like lus).

I used to be a huge proponent of Classification seniority- I was that guy that moved "to get FT," and then again for a Lead date.

Of course, after we lost representation, we had to go with DL's model of using DOH. At the time, I thought it was a disaster. Te years later, I can't imagine going back.

My opinion -and it's just that- is that it might be best for AA workers to just do the same once and for all. Between Kasher, and Titles, and "bad time," and Piedmont, there's just a jumbled mess. There might be some short-term heartburn, but it may prove better in the long run.

Crankyflier article makes some points, but as for issues with AA I have to point the finger at mgmt. This is a much bigger airline than they were used to, and in all fairness this was the last merger behind United and Delta. Even at that I wonder about Parker and team being up to the task.

I hear ya. One thing that struck me while reading the comments from Frequent Fliers was a comment about flights getting earlier and earlier. In my station, AA has an 0517 departure to ORD. I start at 0400, and have to walk by their counter to get to the clock. There's rarely more than a few people in line. That's anecdotal of course, but it reminds of how HP used to run things at the outstations.

 

[WeAAsles]

Kev did you catch this? DGS in RDU talking about layoffs as a result of Delta cancelling their Contract with the service company and insourcing those jobs back to the mainline.

“Last week, Delta Air Lines disclosed that it was terminating its contract with Delta Global Services, instead electing to hire its own ramp crew – translating to 70 full-time positions at RDU. A Delta representative said in an email at the time that DGS employees would be given “preferential consideration above other external candidates” for those jobs.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangl...-at-rdu-impacts-320.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo

 

[Filter]

No strong opinion one way or the other, but here is a quick history of the Kasher award from two different people I have talked with...both were in the room when Kasher made the awards...the TWU offered the IAM 100% of there seniority with one exception...that AFW could not be bumped by MCI during a RIF...the IAM, right or wrong, declined this offer...the TWU then offered 50% seniority across the board for the IAM...of course the IAM wanted 100% in STL and MCI, so they declined again...the TWA seniority that we have today is more or less what the IAM counter-offered with...Roach was the main player for the IAM and Kasher basically decided if the IAM was ok with this that he too would be fine with it and began writing the 30+ awards on the subject...once again I was not there but have heard this twice at different times from different participants...saying all this it would not bother me letting them have their seniority restored but I think it would open the door for lawsuits...sorry for the lengthy post...

TLDR version...IAM screwed themselves regarding seniority for the TWA members...

 

[Kev3188]

It's the first point we've opened/re-opened in over a decade. How could I not have seen it? 🙂

It's great news as far as I'm concerned, and is loooong overdue (same story with AUS opening).

 

[WeAAsles]

No strong opinion one way or the other, but here is a quick history of the Kasher award from two different people I have talked with...both were in the room when Kasher made the awards...the TWU offered the IAM 100% of there seniority with one exception...that AFW could not be bumped by MCI during a RIF...the IAM, right or wrong, declined this offer...the TWU then offered 50% seniority across the board for the IAM...of course the IAM wanted 100% in STL and MCI, so they declined again...the TWA seniority that we have today is more or less what the IAM counter-offered with...Roach was the main player for the IAM and Kasher basically decided if the IAM was ok with this that he too would be fine with it and began writing the 30+ awards on the subject...once again I was not there but have heard this twice at different times from different participants...saying all this it would not bother me letting them have their seniority restored but I think it would open the door for lawsuits...sorry for the lengthy post...

TLDR version...IAM screwed themselves regarding seniority for the TWA members...

I’ve been informed that all Seniority issues regarding the Association for both Fleet and M&R have been resolved and we’re just waiting on JCBA’s to be voted and passed.

 

[WeAAsles]

It's the first point we've opened/re-opened in over a decade. How could I not have seen it? 🙂

It's great news as far as I'm concerned, and is loooong overdue (same story with AUS opening).

Do you know or think Delta will honor any transfer requests utilizing Seniority to fill the vacancies before offering jobs to any of the former DGS employees?

 

[Filter]

I’ve been informed that all Seniority issues regarding the Association for both Fleet and M&R have been resolved and we’re just waiting on JCBA’s to be voted and passed.

I know for a fact Fleet is done...as soon as we have a contract the Crosser/Kozitek letter will most likely be ripped up, which affects TWA company seniority in DFW fleet and GSE...I would assume M&R is done as far as placement...but as far as when and where they use their seniority, that would be contractual...

 

[WeAAsles]

I know for a fact Fleet is done...as soon as we have a contract the Crosser/Kozitek letter will most likely be ripped up, which affects TWA company seniority in DFW fleet and GSE...I would assume M&R is done as far as placement...but as far as when and where they use their seniority, that would be contractual...

I suppose that has to do with the TWA Vacation bidding issue over there? Would love to hear that abolished as it’s at the point now of ridiculous that they can’t bid the same as everyone else in the entire system gets to. There’s only basically a handful of TWA people there anyway for cripes sake.

I’m not even sure if TWA Ramp total numbers a full 400 people left anymore?

 

[Filter]

I suppose that has to do with the TWA Vacation bidding issue over there? Would love to hear that abolished as it’s at the point now of ridiculous that they can’t bid the same as everyone else in the entire system gets to. There’s only basically a handful of TWA people there anyway for cripes sake.

I’m not even sure if TWA Ramp total numbers a full 400 people left anymore?

They accrue VC with their TWA company but bid VC with their 4/10/01 seniority...there are 30 or so still in DFW...at one time some their members were bidding 6 weeks with January, February and some of March available...that letter was written in ‘92 so TWA had nothing to do with it originally...it stemmed from 2 arbitration’s in the ‘70s that involved Sky Chef and AMR employees if I remember correctly...basically a “past practice” decision...on a side note DFW FM bids their VC like the rest of the system...

 

[Kev3188]

Do you know or think Delta will honor any transfer requests utilizing Seniority to fill the vacancies before offering jobs to any of the former DGS employees?

I do. Maybe I’m being naive, but there are a LOT of eyes on these spots, and people watching to see how it out. This company has to know that doing it wrong* would only help the representation drive.

*For context, doing it “right” at DL means awarding regular FT and RR spots in straight seniority order. The only hurdle is if you have an active corrective action in your file.

Leads are filled via an interview process, and not seniority.