What's new

Amfa Wantabes, Explain What Amfa Does Better?

Checking it Out

Veteran
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Messages
1,702
Reaction score
0
AMFA wants us to believe thay can represent us better than any Union currently Representing the Mechanic's and Related?

AMFA wants you to believe they were created to save the members from the Industrial Unions? Please explain why this is?

The TWU, IBT,IAM and the hundreds of others were created to protect us from Corporate America and the injustice our Brithers and Sisters were subjected too.

Please explain why we should support AMFA?

Lets see if you can show some real examples and just answer the questions!!!!
🙄
 
CIO, I will try to give you my opinions and thoughts on this subject. First I would like to explain to you that it's not wantabes, it's willbes. Now to explain to you why AMFA will be our bargining agent and why AMFA has been so succsessful in the mechanic and related arena. In a word it's called DEMOCRACY, this word may be very hard for TWU cultist to understand but, I will try.

AMFA wants us to believe thay can represent us better than any Union currently Representing the Mechanic's and Related?

Amfa currently repesents more airline mechanics and related than any other union in the bussiness and is growing at an astounding rate. Remeber, strength in numbers!!!

AMFA wants you to believe they were created to save the members from the Industrial Unions? Please explain why this is?

Industrial unions beleive that all members of that union should be paid the same regardless of education and or responsabilty with minor adjustments. Industrial unions are structured so that the international can dictate to the membership without any chance of recall of those leaders. Also the international sets up thier own pay and benifit scales that the membership has no vote or say in. When we take consessions the TWU international does not and has no chance for paycuts. This is how a dictatorships work and it's spelled TWU. In a democrtic union such as AMFA the membership is free to use thier education and skills as leverage to increase thier standard of living. just like the pilots do!!! In a democraqtic union such as AMFA the pay scales of the international officers, is a percentage of what the mechanic and related make, thus it is in the interest of the international to work towards increasing the standard of living of the mechanic and related.

The TWU, IBT,IAM and the hundreds of others were created to protect us from Corporate America and the injustice our Brithers and Sisters were subjected too.

This is very true and when they were created and for many years after they did serve thier purpose but, times have changed (out with the old, in with the new) as all thing in life change. Now the only thing an industrial union can do is jump in bed with the company and hope the company will take care of them, at least this is what has happened to the TWU. The TWU is only interested in dues because it has no accountability to the membership and this will never change.

Please explain why we should support AMFA?

AMFA is the most democratic union in the mechanic and related field. Bar none!!! AMFA is also the largest mechanic and related union in it's field, soon to over double in size with AA and USair. As the mechanic and related align across the country our leverage will increase to a point where we will have the same leverage the pilots enjoy!!! I can't remeber the term for it but, when one airline gets a raise the next demands more and the next demands more until the mechanic and related have decent living wages and benifits.
 
Checking it Out said:
AMFA wants us to believe thay can represent us better than any Union currently Representing the Mechanic's and Related?

AMFA wants you to believe they were created to save the members from the Industrial Unions? Please explain why this is?

The TWU, IBT,IAM and the hundreds of others were created to protect us from Corporate America and the injustice our Brithers and Sisters were subjected too.

Please explain why we should support AMFA?

Lets see if you can show some real examples and just answer the questions!!!!
🙄
Imagine that!

You asking for questions to be answered!

Will you do likewise?

If AFL-CIO affiliation is such a plus then how come we are in such a mess? The fact is if your leaders are weak and incompetant, affiliation will not help.

If we were to look at how our pay has performed vs inflation you will see that for 20 years we have been in a downward slide. Not only were we losing on the wage side but we were also losing benefits and language also. To be frank, the unions were doing a lousy job but no other union was doing as bad as the TWU/ATD. The TWU led the way towards decline.

The TWU/ATD seems to have a vendetta against A&P mechanics. They negotiated away more A&P jobs than any other carrier and they have been doing it for over 20 years.

The TWU/ATD was the first to take pushbacks away from mechanics. I worked both union and non-union jobs before coming to AA, at all of those jobs mechanics did the pushbacks. This resulted in the loss of hundreds of A&P jobs and reduced the number of stations available for mechanics to bid to.

The TWU/ATD also took deicing away from A&P mechanics. This reduced the amount of overtime available to mechanics.

The TWU/ATD also failed to gain work done on AA property by other carriers for the A&P mechanics while they did get it for other groups like Fleet Service. This allowed other carriers to bring other mechanics on to AA's ramp while TWU Fleet Service members unloaded the planes. So much for Solidarity!

The TWU/ATD eliminated thousands of A&P jobs, good paying jobs, by adopting the SRP, later changed to the OSM program. A&P mechanics that were assured by the union that they were safe in the shops soon found themselves displaced because the union added the word "system" in front of attrition.

The successful program that AA was able to get with their lapdog union, one of getting the low price of outsourcing while maintaining the control of in house, then using those low wages to hold down the wages of A&P mechanics was a win-win situation for the company and the union- but a disaster for A&P mechanics. The recently proposed agreement at Eagle is nothing more than the continued assault on the profession A&P mechanics by the TWU/ATD. The TWU/ATD has done more harm to the class and craft of A&P mechanics than any other union.

The TWU/ATD not only negotiated mechanics wages that were so low that the company could not hire or keep qualified personnel in high cost areas but they also allowed the company, at their sole discretion to raise and lower starting pay whenever they felt like it! They called this "Flexible Starting Rates". Any real union would have said" You wanted those rates, now you have to live with them".

The greatest threat that A&P mechanics face is the TWU/ATD. A few years back a revision was proposed that could further the use of low paid OSMs. This revision would make it easier to bring OSMs to the line by giving them company issued FAA certificates.

These non-portable certificates would allow the company to tell the public that it still uses FAA licensed mechanics to fix their planes. However these would not be A&P mechanics. Our Local was informed about this revision-FAR66, not by our International, but through our alert section chairman in Boston.

Prior to ratification of the 2001 agreement (and Sept 11) our Local, 562, was making a big stink about FAR 66 and the lack of protective language. We were making so much of a stink about it that Art Luby, counsel to the TWU/ATD cornered me in August to talk to me about the issue and ask me to back off on my criticism of the agreement. The language that I'm sure was written by Luby mentions FAR66 dismissively and provides us absolutely no protection from the revision should it be put in place.

If FAR66 is not the threat that we felt it was then why didn’t they make the language stronger, strong enough to protect us? Instead a key word was omitted -A&P. The whole problem that we as A&Ps have with FAR 66 is the creation of a whole new class of "licensed" mechanics who are not A&Ps. (Contract Article 1(g))

In 2001 our pay surged for a brief moment to where our rate actually brought us right back up to where we should be, less benefit losses however within 2 years we were back on our former track, still losing at the same rate. At the current rate, assuming that we have the average 30 year inflation rate of 3%/yr we will be approximately $30,000 per year behind where we would be if we had a COLA.

This anomaly where we saw a huge bump should be labeled "The AMFA Surge". It was a bump in pay for mechanics that was driven by the contract that AMFA got over at NWA that changed the industry. Anyone who claims anything different is lying. We all know why we got the raise we did in 2001, because AMFA raised the bar for Passenger airlines mechanics. AMFA came into NWA after the IAM brought back a crap contract despite record making profits. The time span between the IAMs proposal and the AMFA settlement did not give AMFA any more of an advantage than the IAM had. The shortage of mechanics was already in effect when the IAM negotiated for the NWA mechanics.

While AMFA can be credited with pioneering the double digit raise for mechanics the TWU/ATD get the credit for the following;
-Double Digit pay cuts
-Negotiating away more holidays than any other union-even those up against a bankruptcy judge
-Negotiating away vacation, setting the standard for paid vacation for new hires below that of non-union Wal-Mart.
-Negotiating away over half of sick time accrual, and reducing sick pay to half pay.
-First to give away pushbacks
-First to give away deicing
-First to give away shop work by creating a class of workers that earn third party wages at a major airline.
-First to eliminate double time regardless of how many hours worked
-First to have mechanics pay for retiree health benefits
-First to have mechanics pay for their own uniform cleaning.
-First to pay for Medical coverage
The list goes on.

As an A&P mechanic I see a union that has been hostile to my interests. I made an investment in getting my A&P and this union is doing everything it can to diminish the value of that license that I worked hard to get. Its creation of a sub class of workers, who perform work that used to done by A&Ps, was a major blow to our profession. It watered down our collective power as A&P mechanics. It inspired FAR 66, a program that transfers standards for mechanics basic training from a government agency that is responsible to the public to private companies that only care about profits. This is being facilitated by a union that only cares about its dues and could care less about our profession. A union that has the nerve to put such a patronizing article such as Article 1 (g) in our agreement.

For over three years I tried to alter our unions course. I tried to "change from within". To make a change that would benefit ALL airline workers as I recognize the fact that mechanics were not the only workers who have lost over the last twenty years. While TWU represented workers led the decline, IAM and IBT workers have all lost out. Baggage handlers, Dispatchers, Stock Clerks, Ticket agents, Flight Attendants and scores of other workers have been losing ground at a pace that exceeds the rest of the economy, and we have been in constant decline for 20 years.

Clearly the present course with our present unions is a dead end. We need change, change from within is not likely as long as we are stuck with leaders who will ruthlessly fight like hell against change from within while rolling over to every concessionary demand put forth by the companies.

Industrial Unionism is not the problem, business unionism, franchise unionism; "Company" unionism is the problem. The grip that Sonny Hall and his "company luvin" minions have on this union is so complete that our best option, our best hope for change is to start with a new organization. We know what the TWU has done for the last twenty years; decimated our profession, led the industry in concessions, bartered away our dreams in the name of more dues. The fact is that there is no reason to stay with Sonny Hall, Jim Little, Gary Yingst and Bobby Gless because even if we did change them we would still be separated from our brothers at all the other airlines by the company unions that pretend to be industrial unions that represent workers in this industry.


AMFA gives us the chance to be represented by people who do not detest us.
AMFA gives us the opportunity to join with our brothers/sisters at other airlines. Stand alone? My ass, stand together with all the other mechanics!
AMFA gives us the opportunity to choose one of our own, someone who has as much concern for the profession as we do, to represent us.
AMFA can give us hope for a better future.

Can the TWU give us any of that? If they could, then why haven’t they?

I know “Its all the members with the 15 minute attention spans faultâ€￾.

Well 15 minutes is plenty of time to fill out a card and vote for change- and the only avenue for change that the International cannot block is a vote for AMFA!
 
Rusty;
There is more to it than Democracy-ACCOUNTABILITY. The two are not always interchangable.

We should not paint all Industrial unions with the same brush based upon our experiences in this industry. Unlike the industrial unions in our industry many industrial unions rely on the theory that the total value of a unified workforce is greater than the sum of its individual parts. In other words the higher skilled should end up making more than they would if they were seperate, and so would everyone else. Its hard to argue that Fleet Service gets any real benefit from being in the same union as mechanics when starting pay is only slightly higher than minimum wage. The total value theory only works if the union leadership is willing to fight. When we look at what we have lost over the last twenty years, and the fact that we have not struck since 1969 its obvious that we have a union leadership that will not under any circumstances fight. The unique structure of the ATD makes this a nearly hopeless situation since no matter how bad things get we will never get to pick our de-facto (or is it defecto) leader, the head of the ATD.

When we look at Local 100, of the very same TWU we see a very different situation. Since Local 100 has control over their contract they have a much different situation than we do. While Sonny Hall can simply remove officers in the fragmented geographically disbursed AA/ATD such actions against the highly concentrated Local 100 would be much more risky. It would not be difficult for ousted Local 100 leaders and the members who put them in power to start a brand new union, a move that would cut the TWU down by nearly 40%. In the ATD no single Local can make this same threat. In the ATD all the power, with no accountability, is with the International.

What we have in our industry is unions that call themselves industrial unions but in fact are just "business unions" that see our industry as a profitable sideline to be franchised between them. The three "unions" TWU,IBT&IAM have a nice "arrangement" where they do not overtly go after each others members, in other words "raid", instead they use their own members to try and put the other guys company out of business by undercutting each other, thus allowing "their company" to expand which in turn increases the number of dues payers. In effect they have all become "company unions" in that their primary goal is the continuence of its dues supply from the airline and not what is best for the workers of the industry. The TWU has been the most successful of all. With all its industry leading concession American Airlines has become the largest employer in the industry. The object is not to maximize pay and benefits but to maximize dues, We all lose, not just mechanics.


My hope is that if all the mechanics do end up in AMFA that we look to assist those we left behind in the franchised/company unions. We should assist them in a move to the AGW, assist the flight attendants at consolidating and then, along with the independent pilots unions rejoin the AFL-CIO as allies of the SEIU and other progressive unions and make the labor movement a real movement instead of a committee of old self serving incompetants who are only good at speechmaking and excuses. A "movement" that is not afraid to "move".



PS The term is "leapfroging".
 
Well Bob, I want to thank you for the greater insight and say WOW that sure is a lot of info!!! Thanks again. :up: :up: :up:
 
CIO,

Once again Bob Owens has blown the worthless twu right out of the WATER!

Thanks Bob, both your posts rocked!

I think you said it for all of us (except CIO of course)

I fear that no matter how it is explained to you CIO, no matter how many times you are proven wrong, you refuse the TRUTH!!! You are like the Tom Cruise character in "Rain Man". Your not EVER going to fly, and your going kick and scream if anybody tries to make you.

Just like I hammered you with your old lies from other BB's yesterday, you say "Gee Thanks" and go on like you don't know you just got your ass handed to you. I have seen this recently in your view that the twu DID NOT get DECIMATED at the AMFA meeting in Tulsa!!!! Are you FOR REAL????? You must have been one of the fools that got sliced and diced by AMFA National. Hurt your twu ego did it???? Your beyond belief.

YOU just will not listen to anybody but the twu, and your DELUSIONAL MIND constantly plays tricks on you.

However, we will drive on with AMFA and without your support, and there is not a DAMN thing you can do to stop us!!!!!! :up: :shock: :up: :shock: :up: :shock:
 
I can answer the questions CIO presents with only two words....

MAJORITY RULE


It really is that simple!
 
All CIO needs to do is look at the current NWA contract and our current contract to answer his own question. Better yet, look at the current NWA contract and our last contract (pre May '03). It is the diference between night and day.
The TWU couldn't negotiate it' way out of a wet paper bag[/color] :down:


Go AMFA!

WOO,WOO!
 
Well CIO you definetely pulled bobs chain and see what you got, more than you can handle !!
There isn't a whole lot more left to say after that. :lol: :lol:
but hey he did leave alittle room for more so hang on.
 
Bob, Great speech except for a couple of problems.

1. 52% of the maintenance work is out-sourced to 3rd parties. Now their is even groups starting line Maintenance. Their cost structure when you add all the unexpected costs are still 15 to 20% lower.

By Delle-Femines by his own words, the plan you have spelled out will not work unless the un-organized are organized in the Aviation Industry. With the increase in out-sourcing amfa has allowed in the contracts they have negotiated, they in fact opened the door for un-limited low cost 3rd paty maintenance to take our work.

The majority of the members named job security as the #1 issue and Retirement as #2. The TWU stood up and achived both with minimal layoffs. Something amfa and IAM were unsuccess at doing.

The timco's are here to stay and will continue to dominate and dictate wages. Nothing we can do to stop the trend from taking place! Thanks to the lack of experience on amfa's part. I will give you credit yes amfa did get top wages, But at what cost? Jobs. Massive percentages of jobs.

On top of this amfa is a corporation farming-out to 3rd party work to the McCormick group and he is making millions off the dues of the members!!!!

Their is really no difference between amfa or the TWU in their structure other than how you vote on the leaders, but you know both have conventions and both elect during the conventions.

And both elect the individuals to attend the conventions, Now the locals represent many different Airlines the same as the TWU. Deep down they both are after our dues!!!!!! Is amfa natl and TWU Natl both 3rd party entities now?


What is your veiw on third party Maintenance growing in leaps and bounds?
 
And it is thw TWU who tags along to Singapore Maintenance in San Antonio to see how they can help the company.
 
TWU is the Smart ones!!!

They are willing to understand who the compitition is in Maintenance Work!!

You should give them credit, They have allowed you to be a C/C by Hire in date instead of smarts and ambition!!!!!!
 
CIO,

The TWU distributed a flyer called "just the facts", see below:

TWU_Justfacts.jpg


HERE ARE SOME FACTS FOR YOU CIO!

Posted below is a story of the AFL-CIO Affiliated ALPA Pilots Union at Mesaba Airlines, and the AFL-CIO Affiliated TWU Southwest Flight Attendants, the TWU attacks AMFA for being 12 months past amendable date in negoitations at mesaba. The TWU claims AMFA is a "stand alone union" and the AFL-CIO affiliation will make a difference.

Why is it then that the AFL-CIO affiliated ALPA Pilots are TWO YEARS into negoitations and are conducting a strike vote at mesaba? Do they suck in your mind also?

We are talking about the same ariline (MESABA). What say you about that?

I trust you will distribute the facts about both the AFL-CIO affiliated APLA Pilots at Mesaba, and the TWU represented Flight Attendants at Southwest Airlines? The TWU Flight Attendants are now 17 Months into negotiations.

WHERE IS THE AFL-CIO DIFFERENCE CIO?
I DONT SEE IT!

Reuters
Mesaba pilots to vote on whether to strike
Friday October 10, 6:55 pm ET


NEW YORK, Oct 10 (Reuters) - Officials from Mesaba Airlines' pilots union said on Friday they will let rank-and-file pilots decide this month whether to authorize a strike, after more than two years of talks with the regional airline failed to yield a new contract.

Ballots will go out in the next few weeks and results of the voting will be available by the end of this month, Mesaba's representatives to the Air Line Pilots Association (News - Websites) said.

Mesaba, a unit of Minneapolis-based MAIR Holdings Inc. (NasdaqNM:MAIR - News), runs regional flights on small aircraft to 109 cities for Northwest Airlines, the No. 4 U.S. air carrier.

The pilots have been in talks with Mesaba for more than two years. The two parties spent more than half of that time in mediation overseen by the National Mediation Board.

Airline labor contracts are governed by the Railway Labor Act, which allows strikes only after an extensive process. The pilots' current agreement with Mesaba, which covers 858 employees, took effect in 1996.

The contract became amendable on June 1, 2002, but does not expire because it falls under the Railway Labor Act, according to pilots union spokesman.

A "yes" vote by pilots would give the union permission to declare a strike, but only if the federal mediation board determines that direct talks have reached an impasse.

An independent arbitrator would then be appointed, but if either side rejects the arbitrator's decision, the union could strike after a 30-day cooling-off period, a union spokesman said.

Mesaba spokesman Dave Jackson said the airline was still committed to talks.

"There still remain a number of open issues, but I also would say there's room for progress," Jackson said.




Southwest Airlines requests mediation

Southwest Airlines Requests National Mediation Board Assistance for TWU 556
Negotiations
Wednesday September 10, 4:38 pm ET

DALLAS, Sept. 10 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV -
News) announced today that it has requested the assistance of the National
Mediation Board to conclude negotiations and reach a new contract with the
TWU Local 556, which represents its 7,200 Flight Attendants.

"We are committed to negotiating a new contract which recognizes the
unparalleled excellence of the Flight Attendants of Southwest Airlines,"
said Southwest CEO and Vice Chairman Jim Parker. "Unfortunately, it no
longer appears that this is possible without outside assistance. This is why
we have requested the assistance of the National Mediation Board."

Southwest Airlines expects the National Mediation Board to appoint a
Mediator, who will establish a schedule and ground rules for future
negotiating sessions.

"After 16 months of negotiations, we are anxious to reach an agreement and
believe the National Mediation Board will expedite this matter," Parker
said.


MEANWHILE, THE AFL-CIO Affiliated TWU OPENED OUR CONTRACT EARLY AND GUTTED IT, IN RECORD TIME FOR AIRLINE BASED NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT IS THE TWU AT AA DIFFERENCE!

I DONT SEE HOW CIO CAN SUPPORT AND/OR DEFEND SUCH COMPANY UNION LEADERSHIP
 
You know CIO we could settle all this in a debate in front of the entire membership. I think you might just learn something. Well at least it will give the TWU a chance to speak to the AMFA majority anyway. Lets get it on!!! :up: :up: :up:
 
Checking it Out said:
TWU is the Smart ones!!!

They are willing to understand who the compitition is in Maintenance Work!!

You should give them credit, They have allowed you to be a C/C by Hire in date instead of smarts and ambition!!!!!!
Smart ones?

It is the mechanic craft and class who have finally realize who the competition is. It is the Industrial unions who cater to the company. Who allow farming out of our work in house just to maintain a dues base. Who sprew a liberal left wing agenda through the collection of those dues.

It is the TWU who has consistantly blocked the attempts of the company to have a C/C board. Do you want the C/C board to become a reality CIO? I am fine with that, as long as we make all of the existing C/C's test and prove their knowledge.

It is your unions system and you dislike it?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top