AMT morale in the toilet

[Bear96]

Absolutely Unrealistic.

The wage and benefit increases achieved as a result of the NWA PEB in March of 2001, and UALs in January of 2002(despite 9-11) clearly showed the results of the very market forces you constantly espouse. This was, in large part, the result of an increasing shortage of aircraft mechanics.

Along comes 9-11, and the industry goes into a tail spin. Between bankruptcy and industry wide downsizing, thousands of experienced mechanics hit the streets. As the vast majority of those furloughed were caught completely off guard, they in turn, out of neccessity, take up positions at OSVs at substantialy reduced rates. It was in this glut of mechanics, that NWA was able to fall back on and gain the advantage in the strike. Nothing more.

This conflux of 9-11 and resultant bankruptcy/downsizing is an aberation, and not truely reflective of the aircraft mechanic market.

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with everything you say, except possibly the last sentence. It remains to be seen whether the current period (that began on 9/11) is merely an aberration, or if it is the new normal. I am not saying you are wrong; rather, it is simply to early to tell.

If you want to wait around for many years and bank your career on it being an aberration, go ahead. Just remember, the more people who try to wait it out rather than getting on with their lives, the less incentive there is for anything to change, and the longer the "aberration" will last.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with everything you say, except possibly the last sentence. It remains to be seen whether the current period (that began on 9/11) is merely an aberration, or if it is the new normal. I am not saying you are wrong; rather, it is simply to early to tell.

If you want to wait around for many years and bank your career on it being an aberration, go ahead. Just remember, the more people who try to wait it out rather than getting on with their lives, the less incentive there is for anything to change, and the longer the "aberration" will last.

I left UAL in 2003 following their bankruptcy, and no longer work in aviation.

 

[Bear96]

I left UAL in 2003 following their bankruptcy, and no longer work in aviation.

Smart man. Same with me.

If enough people did the same, airline employee wages would start to rise.

 

[flyastrojets]

If enough people did the same, airline employee wages would start to rise.

Ding! We have a winner. People get paid what the market demands. As soon as attrition picks up to a rate that AA (or any organization for that matter) can't keep up with, wages will rise.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Ding! We have a winner. People get paid what the market demands. As soon as attrition picks up to a rate that AA (or any organization for that matter) can't keep up with, wages will rise.

Unfortunately, the laws of supply and demand are still in effect, and can bite us. There is an abundant supply of cheap labor out there, and that number is increasing daily, both by immigration and birth rate. All AA has to do is lower the hire in requirements again, or fill more slots with SRPs, "junior mechanics", or lettuce-pickers or whatever. Only the guy who signs the logbook needs a license. The rest need no training, no experience, no skills, no license, no English, whatever. The chop shops have already gone that way.

The days of having completed military, being screened and trained by the military, having licenses, FCC licenses being required for avionics work, having heavy aircraft experience, passing tests, etc as requirements are gone.

 

[700UW]

US back in 2004 outsourced the first Airbus to Singapore Technologies Mobile Aerospace.

The plane on its first revenue flight had to make an emergency landing due to shoddy work by ST MAE.

It took US' own mechanics several days to fix the improper rigging of the flight controls. Ironic it happened to another Airbus that ST MAE overhauled for US.

There were seven incidents with the first ten planes that were outsourced and the FAA had to investigate.

Another plane had the girt bars, expoxied over and a flight was delayed as the the FA could not get the MED to shut. Upon investigation it was also discovered the slide was not rigged properly either and was found to be damaged by being dragged across the hangar floor.

Yep great work by MROs, NOT!

 

[Bear96]

Ding! We have a winner. People get paid what the market demands. As soon as attrition picks up to a rate that AA (or any organization for that matter) can't keep up with, wages will rise.

The luddites here don't want to hear that. They think supply and demand is something someone can choose to believe or not. They don't realize it's like gravity -- you can pretend it's not there, but it affects you the same as anyone else, like it or not.

 

[Hopeful]

The luddites here don't want to hear that. They think supply and demand is something someone can choose to believe or not. They don't realize it's like gravity -- you can pretend it's not there, but it affects you the same as anyone else, like it or not.

Hmmm, Let's see!

A CEO has his/her compensation and benefit package determined
by the company's board of directors' compensation panel.

HMMMMM! Who makes up the Board of directors? CEO's and other executives of other companies who have their compensation and benefit package determined by their company's board of directors who are CEO's and executives of other company's who have their compensation and benefit package determined by their company's board of directors who are CEO's and executives of other company's who have their compensation and benefit package determined......well, you know the drill!


The market rate that you speak of is determined by themselves AND THEIR PEERS! No one else!

So spare me the market and supply and demand bull####!

Greed begets greed!

Unfortunately, the laws of supply and demand are still in effect, and can bite us. There is an abundant supply of cheap labor out there, and that number is increasing daily, both by immigration and birth rate. All AA has to do is lower the hire in requirements again, or fill more slots with SRPs, "junior mechanics", or lettuce-pickers or whatever. Only the guy who signs the logbook needs a license. The rest need no training, no experience, no skills, no license, no English, whatever. The chop shops have already gone that way.

The days of having completed military, being screened and trained by the military, having licenses, FCC licenses being required for avionics work, having heavy aircraft experience, passing tests, etc as requirements are gone.

And the reason there are so many aircraft mechanics on the street is because the greedy airline executives started contracting out work to third part facilties OVERSEAS and using the bankruptcy courts to dictate their demands!

And when the greedy CEO's make the decisions to slash thousands of jobs, they get applauded on Wall Street!

 

[MCI transplant]

I think that illustrates the power of solidarity more than the "value of skill."

In any case, what is your point about something that happend FORTY YEARS AGO? How is that relevant to this discussion? Why don't you all go on strike again if that is the solution to your problems? Heck, even if the government says it is illegal, they can't fire ALL of you, right? (Since you're so irreplaceable and all.)

BTW -- some friendly advice -- a lot of things have changed since the middle of last century.

<_< ---- Including the skill of most so called Pilots! Most of which nowdays couldn't fly a box kite in a hurricane without the aid of a auto-pilot! And have become, at best, nothing more than glorified bus drivers!!!!

 

[High Iron]

<_< ---- Including the skill of most so called Pilots! Most of which nowdays couldn't fly a box kite in a hurricane without the aid of a auto-pilot! And have become, at best, nothing more than glorified bus drivers!!!!

No need to bash pilots in order to advance mechanic's causes, as good arguments have already been made.

Don't fall for the divide and conquer trap.

And no, I'm not a pilot.

 

[Hopeful]

No need to bash pilots in order to advance mechanic's causes, as good arguments have already been made.

Don't fall for the divide and conquer trap.

And no, I'm not a pilot.

I agree! There is aarogance in all departments. This is not about pilots or flight attendants or mechanics or agents or line cargo.!

This is about management screwing us continually with a Christmas gift of them getting several hundred millions in bonuses.

My local president along with other line maintnenace local presidents met with Danny Martinez a few weeks ago. The management bonus topic arose and Martinez said they plan ON taking everything that's theirs BECAUSE THEY HAVE A CONTRACT! WE HAD A CONTRACT THAT WAS DRASTICALLY ALTERED WITH A VERY LARGE BANKRUPTCY GUN POINTED AT OUR HEADS!

When the Miami local president said his local would pull out of the TWU/AA love fest PLI crap, Martinez threatened to shrink the line stations maintenance wise!
WHAT A MANAGEMENT TEAM!

It's funny how American's financial condition starting with 9/11/01 had no change on management.
Simply amazing!

 

[Oneflyer]

Hmmm, Let's see!

A CEO has his/her compensation and benefit package determined
by the company's board of directors' compensation panel.

HMMMMM! Who makes up the Board of directors? CEO's and other executives of other companies who have their compensation and benefit package determined by their company's board of directors who are CEO's and executives of other company's who have their compensation and benefit package determined by their company's board of directors who are CEO's and executives of other company's who have their compensation and benefit package determined......well, you know the drill!
The market rate that you speak of is determined by themselves AND THEIR PEERS! No one else!

So spare me the market and supply and demand bull####!

Lets just say that you are right on the executive compensation. I agree with you completely here, but executives are a very small percentage of the employees.

Everyone else is still paid based upon supply and demand. How many qualified workers are there vs. how many openings. If the industry shrinks/changes there is going to be a supply glut and drive wages down. As that industry benefits from reduced costs, it will expand, thus driving wages higher. Work slow downs, union action, union contracts etc. my temporarily change that dynamic, but eventually it will reach an equilibrium.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -----There is at least two things looming on the horizon that could hit us all in the wallet, mechanic, and pilot alike! These are foreign ownership of what are now American Companies (Airlines)! Example: A merger, or out right buy-out of aa, by British Air! George W. is currently considering such a relaxation of these laws. Second, Bush and Co. is also considering an "Open Sky's" treaty, which would allow foreign carriers to carry passengers, point to point, within our boarders!------

 

[Hopeful]

Lets just say that you are right on the executive compensation. I agree with you completely here, but executives are a very small percentage of the employees.

So a fewer employees in the ranks of the executive privileged are sharing in several hundred million in bonuses?????(I'm not referring to annual salary here)

Seems to me, that using the logic that there there are fewer management than non-management is a poor means of justifying the mega bonuses!

Let me put it in a little perspective here!

Let's say the top 1000 management people share, let's say, $400 million dollars. Now, of course the fat cats at the top get millions, but let's say, the average will be $400,000 per manager. I know the lower levels wont see anything like that, but lets talk "average"

Now, in April, let's say 10,000 mechanics each get $.43 cents an hour (1.5% as per the wonderful concessionary contract)which equates to $17.20 a week which comes out to $894 a year!

That comes out to $8,940,000 for the year for mechanics.


So:

$400,000,000 for 1000 people

$8,940,00 for 10,000 people!


Can you hear me now?

Has nothing to do with marke and supply and demand!

 

[Oneflyer]

So a fewer employees in the ranks of the executive privileged are sharing in several hundred million in bonuses?????(I'm not referring to annual salary here)

Seems to me, that using the logic that there there are fewer management than non-management is a poor means of justifying the mega bonuses!

Let me put it in a little perspective here!

Let's say the top 1000 management people share, let's say, $400 million dollars. Now, of course the fat cats at the top get millions, but let's say, the average will be $400,000 per manager. I know the lower levels wont see anything like that, but lets talk "average"

Now, in April, let's say 10,000 mechanics each get $.43 cents an hour (1.5% as per the wonderful concessionary contract)which equates to $17.20 a week which comes out to $894 a year!

That comes out to $8,940,000 for the year for mechanics.
So:

$400,000,000 for 1000 people

$8,940,00 for 10,000 people!
Can you hear me now?

Has nothing to do with marke and supply and demand!

You're not even understanding my point. I'm saying that for eveyone other the top 10 employees, everyone is paid based upon supply and demand. Those top 10 could go earn more, but I would agree that it is artificially inflated.

The top 1000 managers do not get anything close to 400 million in bonuses or raises. Get a grip.

If I remember correctly there are less than 1000 level 5s and above. And before you go off talking about people, keep in mind that a level 5 makes between 60-80k per year with a small bonus, not exactly millions of dollars.