AMR management has done it within their ranks. Problem is that those that arrive want a pay raise for the increased level of intellect and skill they bring to the cubicle.
APA Hosts Strike Preparedness Summit
- Thread starter Veritas
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AMR management has done it within their ranks. Problem is that those that arrive want a pay raise for the increased level of intellect and skill they bring to the cubicle.
There is a big difference between fighting for a good contract and closing your eyes and shouting "lalalalalalala I can't hear you!" during negotiations, which is in effect what the APA is doing. They are choosing to ignore reality and, as another poster said, they live in a world where airlines are raking profits.
At the current rate, the only thing the APA will succeed in doing is raising the expectations of its members to dangerous levels.
and is that a bad thing? I think they're showing Management that they're not falling for the usual BS Arpey & Co. spill out every negotiation time.
oh gee, management is doing it so why can't all workgroups do the same? Or is that "perk" only regulated to management? they keep reiterating the industry is in bad shape YET they have no qualms about receiving bonuses and raises to their already bloated salaries while the rest of us get nothing (because, as management says "the high price of fuel, the state of the economy, yad yada yada"). Who really is ignoring reality there and living in a world where airlines are raking profits, the employees or management?
As opposed to the APFA and TWU's low expectations and cowardice by falling for the usual management mantra of "we're on the steps of BK court" and telling its members that a mediocre contract is the BEST they can get because..."The state of the industry is bad, the high price of fuel, yada yada yada". They're still clinging to the belief of Pull together, win together which we all know is a bunch of BS and benefits NOBODY except management. They're actually doing a great job of spreading Management's fear mongering themselves.
IMO I find nothing wrong with raising one's expectations. The APA's demands may be out of this world and I'm sure most of its members are intelligent enough to know they will not get all of it but What IF they do get all these demands and then what? The other Unions will then get on the bandwagon and find out there's nothing left to hand out. So by our sitting back and being the "reality-check" intelligent people we think we are, who ends up the loser?
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Mach, I actually agree with the "free" internet for crew members, and would go a step further -- assign all crew members Blackberries. That way, they have their free internet with them at all times, and be able to stay in touch with home at company expense.
An old issue it is, but it doesn't change the fact that the pilots did indeed ask for a higher travel classification, and they did ask for Super Bowl Sunday to be considered a paid holiday...
You can try to spin this as "APA knew AA would have to give it to the rest of the employees like they did with direct deposit" or some other pile of horse crap.
And if the pilots had received it, but AA not given it to the rest of the employees, you can bet your lump sum B fund that the pilots would have been saying "it was negotiated" every time they got dirty looks for bumping someone.
An old issue it is, but it doesn't change the fact that the pilots did indeed ask for a higher travel classification, and they did ask for Super Bowl Sunday to be considered a paid holiday...
You can try to spin this as "APA knew AA would have to give it to the rest of the employees like they did with direct deposit" or some other pile of horse crap.
And if the pilots had received it, but AA not given it to the rest of the employees, you can bet your lump sum B fund that the pilots would have been saying "it was negotiated" every time they got dirty looks for bumping someone.
APFA and TWU have done right by their members by putting aside the intransigence and working with the company to set up the VBRs. It's not spreading fear mongering, it's taking a pragmatic look at industry and economic realities and showing flexibility. Less people will lose their jobs because of it.
The pilots will not get their demands met. Period. End of story. APA is selling snake oil.
It seems to me that bullying tactics will not get the pilots anywhere. As mentioned elsewhere, part of negotiating is compromise. To date, APA has not felt the need to compromise, but rather maintains they are owed the compensation they demand. That may very well be the case, but realistically, as you state, it is not going to happen anytime soon. Holding strike preparedness meetings does not seem very productive at this time either.
I feel for the other work groups who, in all fairness, are also owed more by the company but are acknowledging the realities of the industry. They are finding ways to lessen the blow of cutbacks through VBR, etc. while the APA is finding ways to further harm the airline. Not a good move.
- Thread Starter
- #22
I read elsewhere that AA offered an incentive equal to four months pay to senior captains who elect to take early retirement (not all equipment types are included, though). It seems to be in line with the VBR offered the flight attendants.
True, but APA hasn't accepted the proposal and is sending out vibes that they might not. If this is rejected, I would imagine there might be some angry pilots out there who have been waiting for an early out opportunity such as this.
Unfortunately, there's just no trust by either side in the other. Management is frustrated with having to answer for every little thing to people who don't know the business very well. When I say management, I'm not just talking about Arpey...it's the Analyst in Finance who busts his/her butt everyday and sees how bad things are for a lot less than their friends make doing the same thing and every pilot/mechanic/flight attendant out there makes some snide remark about how useless they are yet couldn't explain the fundaments of anything the analyst does. For the workers, it's seeing things not working and hearing about a bonus with a quarterly loss. It's hearing about the industry in turmoil when you're 5 years from retirement and hoping you win the race.
The answer isn't as simple as one would like either. For managment to change to what the frontline people want would likely kill the company. For the front liners to change would get the union heads voted out of office.
The answer isn't as simple as one would like either. For managment to change to what the frontline people want would likely kill the company. For the front liners to change would get the union heads voted out of office.
Hang on just a second here - don't even try to glorify a friggin' financial analyst. What they actually do only requires the knowledge from 2 years of high school accounting classes. The rest of it is 'read-'til-you-see-it-in-your-sleep' familiarity with tax law and GAAP.
Yes, you are correct that many are extemely pissed about losing money and giving the execs new stock to sell for an undeserved bonus. If company finances are really the way they're presented, a better use for that stock would be to pay down debt after its sale. Arpey and minions are simply collecting what they can, possibly because the believe they may not have a job in the near future if foreign ownership rules are relaxed, BA buys half, and American Airlines begins being run like a real business rather than a few executives' personal piggy bank.
I have no problem with forgoing quite a bit in the way of pay and benefits, but I'll not forgo anything quietly as long as a group of idiots are collecting unearned millions and pissing on the company's employees with the blessings of a so-called union (TWU) that's supposed to be on the side of those who pay its dues.
Yes, BTW, most of the workers do think the management types are useless. Any fool can sit behind a desk, go to endless meetings, and function as a deflector of blame for an equally stupid boss - as I've said before, 80% of the management (not staff) could disappear overnight and all that would suffer is a few egos and empires. The problem would be with those that are left - they may not know how to do their respective jobs as they've not had to for years.
Wait a minute Mister, I'm not gonna to tied to AA so they can call me 25 hours a day!
You make a good point, we get what we ask for :blink: Where's that ref for the "Law of Unintended Consequences"?Disagree with the excrement description. You know that it was a negotiating point, and APA cannot legally ask for anything other than the pilots. It wasn't pretty and the comm/coordination with other groups was non existent which was the main problem. I guess you've forgotten that what drove the issue was AMR's legion of non-airline companies that were trading flight benefits for cheaper salary and sending the both of us to another non-rev flight just because we got to the airport 1 minute later.
As for DD, Crandall told our negotiators, "no way, we're making $250K on the float from you guys not cashing checks for 2 weeks, you owe us that if you get DD". Everyone else got it because of the pilots. You're welcome.
As for the Super Bowl, it's kind of like a fart in a serious conversation. I don't know how that one got in there and don't agree with it. In the future, I'd rather fly a load of coughing bird-flu chickens and puking ebola virus infected monkeys than stay home and be forced to watch a Jets-Giants Super Bowl.
Pilots that would be covered by this agreement can retire anyway. They can also retire stand-in-stead and get would-be furlough pay, plus they can lock in their B-fund 90 days prior (important now that the DOW is seriously sliding) and retire when they want, and not when AA will let them go.
That's one of the best summations I've seen about what's happening at AA, so well said.
Not trying to pick a fight, Goose, but I think your response exemplifies flyhigh's point perfectly.
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