Apples and Oranges

[Bob Owens]

With the recent passage of the IBT M&R agreement I'm a bit puzzled. The IBT is telling UPS that $46.99 is not enough for the A&Ps yet they told mechanics at Continental that $36.52 is a good deal. One of my contacts informed me that Continental mechanics at EWR questioned this and the response was "you are comparing apples to oranges". Really? Well does an applle become an orange depending on its location and who is buying it? Would an Apple still be an Apple and an Orange still be an Orange no matter who the buyer was and where it was sold?

EWR has a decent UPS presence. If a mechanic quits Continental and is hired by UPS has he majically transformed himself from an apple to an orange, or is he still an A&P with the same exact skillsets and liabilities? Is a 767 freighter really that different from a 767 passenger airplane, does it carry $10/hr worth of adiitional liability and difficulty? What makes the A&P at Continental worth $10/hr less than the mechanic at UPS?

The fact is that $46.99 is a fair price for an A&P. Its around what the industry paid in 2002, once inflation is thrown in.

An A&P wortking at EWR on heavy transport aircraft carries virtually the same exact skillsets and liabilitise whether he is working or freighters or passenger planes. They are no different, they are the same. They are not different species, they are the same species, the IBT has just decided for some reason that Continental should get a really good deal.

 

[gtd]

With the recent passage of the IBT M&R agreement I'm a bit puzzled. The IBT is telling UPS that $46.99 is not enough for the A&Ps yet they told mechanics at Continental that $36.52 is a good deal. One of my contacts informed me that Continental mechanics at EWR questioned this and the response was "you are comparing apples to oranges". Really? Well does an applle become an orange depending on its location and who is buying it? Would an Apple still be an Apple and an Orange still be an Orange no matter who the buyer was and where it was sold?

EWR has a decent UPS presence. If a mechanic quits Continental and is hired by UPS has he majically transformed himself from an apple to an orange, or is he still an A&P with the same exact skillsets and liabilities? Is a 767 freighter really that different from a 767 passenger airplane, does it carry $10/hr worth of adiitional liability and difficulty? What makes the A&P at Continental worth $10/hr less than the mechanic at UPS?

The fact is that $46.99 is a fair price for an A&P. Its around what the industry paid in 2002, once inflation is thrown in.

An A&P wortking at EWR on heavy transport aircraft carries virtually the same exact skillsets and liabilitise whether he is working or freighters or passenger planes. They are no different, they are the same. They are not different species, they are the same species, the IBT has just decided for some reason that Continental should get a really good deal.

As a Mechanic at UAL the ibt uses the same logic. When we tell them we want SWA wages they differentiate them from us. Thing here is the ibt has frequently claimed "they don't want to make the company angry." Now just recently they broke off negotiations and claimed the company has no respect for our ibt negotiating team so now the negotiators are hitting the floor trying to drum up support. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending who you are, the membership aint' biting. The ibt for two and a half years have told this membership, by their actions, to sit down and shut up, we know what's best for you. The ibt philosophy of closed negotiations and a dictatorship ran union has bitten them in the ass. They have finally lost the respect of the company, the membership and turned the whole negotiating process into a "circus." The ibt must go!

 

[xUT]

Fruit comparison does not fit meat-heads... 😀

 

[strfyr51]

As a Mechanic at UAL the ibt uses the same logic. When we tell them we want SWA wages they differentiate them from us. Thing here is the ibt has frequently claimed "they don't want to make the company angry." Now just recently they broke off negotiations and claimed the company has no respect for our ibt negotiating team so now the negotiators are hitting the floor trying to drum up support. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending who you are, the membership aint' biting. The ibt for two and a half years have told this membership, by their actions, to sit down and shut up, we know what's best for you. The ibt philosophy of closed negotiations and a dictatorship ran union has bitten them in the ass. They have finally lost the respect of the company, the membership and turned the whole negotiating process into a "circus." The ibt must go!

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WHOA there Cowboy!!
This isn't Nearly as simple as you make it out to BE! $36.52 isn't a bad "opening number". However, consider that $37.00/Hr was where you were in 2002 (At UAL) and you need to concentrate on THAT number. $37.00 Base rate is where you will be at LEAST back to Zero % loss Not counting inflation which Should have taken the base rate to $43.58/Hr if not for the Bankruptcy. $46.99 is Nice, but really? No Matter What. Getting a pay rate that can't be screwed OVER should be the position. The company has made Untold Millions in Unreported profits since 2002, They've only recently HAD to stop Lieing about the Profits Just to push this merger forward. Otherwise they'd STILL be claiming Losses and Lining senior managment's pockets. Yeah, $46.99 Might be where you should be? But! Anything in Excess of $37.00/Hr and a $43.58 all in rate is not too shabby for a first contract out of Bankruptcy. This will stabilize the floor and allowefor the next contract to be even better. The comany know this and the IBT had Better know this. We've changed too many horses in mid Stream in the past 6 years.
Ride the one you're on for the moment. You voted them in Didn't you??

 

[Bob Owens]

As a Mechanic at UAL the ibt uses the same logic. When we tell them we want SWA wages they differentiate them from us. Thing here is the ibt has frequently claimed "they don't want to make the company angry." Now just recently they broke off negotiations and claimed the company has no respect for our ibt negotiating team so now the negotiators are hitting the floor trying to drum up support. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending who you are, the membership aint' biting. The ibt for two and a half years have told this membership, by their actions, to sit down and shut up, we know what's best for you. The ibt philosophy of closed negotiations and a dictatorship ran union has bitten them in the ass. They have finally lost the respect of the company, the membership and turned the whole negotiating process into a "circus." The ibt must go!

If the IBT wants you to rally behind them in taking on the company I would say do it. You dont want to drag this on longer than needed and you guys could always do what SWA mechs did, get your contract then switch unions. Over at SWA the IBT got them industry leading but the mechanics didnt like what they felt what was their overbearing dictatorial ways, so they canned them. But the last thing you want to do is let the company exploit your differences and drag this on even longer. I would be challenging theIBT more as far as SWA and UPS, how do they reconcile saying that an A&P at UPS is worth more than $46.99 yet $35.52 is good enough for an A&P at UAL/Continental? Its the same license, dont you pay the same for a loaf of bread as he does? Why is your A&P worth $10/hr less than his? You guys dont do much heavy OH anymore so they cant push that BS line like we get over at AA. That Apples and Oranges line really pisses me off, so sad to hear unions talk like companies, what ever happened to ""Labor is not a commodity" one minute they are saying Apples and Oranges, the next they remember that they are a union and say "A loaf of bread costs the same". One minute our unions treat us like we are their commodity, the next we are human again.Well which is it, the company line or the union line? Make a damned decision!!!! Good luck!

 

[Bob Owens]

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WHOA there Cowboy!!
This isn't Nearly as simple as you make it out to BE! $36.52 isn't a bad "opening number". However, consider that $37.00/Hr was where you were in 2002 (At UAL) and you need to concentrate on THAT number. $37.00 Base rate is where you will be at LEAST back to Zero % loss Not counting inflation which Should have taken the base rate to $43.58/Hr if not for the Bankruptcy. $46.99 is Nice, but really? No Matter What. Getting a pay rate that can't be screwed OVER should be the position. The company has made Untold Millions in Unreported profits since 2002, They've only recently HAD to stop Lieing about the Profits Just to push this merger forward. Otherwise they'd STILL be claiming Losses and Lining senior managment's pockets. Yeah, $46.99 Might be where you should be? But! Anything in Excess of $37.00/Hr and a $43.58 all in rate is not too shabby for a first contract out of Bankruptcy. This will stabilize the floor and allowefor the next contract to be even better. The comany know this and the IBT had Better know this. We've changed too many horses in mid Stream in the past 6 years.
Ride the one you're on for the moment. You voted them in Didn't you??

Are you guys shooting for an all in of $43.58? If so where can I find that?

 

[strfyr51]

Are you guys shooting for an all in of $43.58? If so where can I find that?

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No, Based on the drop during bankruptcy from $37.00 back to 26.00-29.00 with an all in rate of $35.00 $43.58 is where I calculate we should be based on the consumer price index . Including lost Home values and other things. That UPS is at $46.99/hr should be a number to shoot for.. But! UPS is a $100B Company while United is an $11B company. The profits nor the expenses correlate, so unless the entire $43.58 is all hourly pay toward retirement? Even if the mecahnics regain $37.00/hr? We're STILL $6.00/hr Below where we should be (By my calculations). Now nobody is going to STARVE making $36.58 where the Teamsters think we should be. BUT!! The teamsters weren't Brought IN to telll us what THEY like! They're here to DO WHAT WE told them WE want THEM to DO!! And they'd BETTER start LISTENING UP!! I'm not at ALL impressed with Clacy Griswold the Teamster Airline Rep. as I've already caught him and his "cronies" in a couple of LIES already. UPS's local 2727 doesn't answer to the Teamster National so the Teamsters Do as they're TOLD to at UPS. At United and CAL the teamsters have us split between 2 locals full of Truck Drivers. And it's MY personal belief that We should have our OWN locals Just like 2727 at UPS. And if the IBT can't get with that?? We KNOW that the IAM would bend over BACKWARDS to do our bidding.. And they KNOW the mechanics will BEND THEM OVER if they DON'T!

 

[Bob Owens]

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No, Based on the drop during bankruptcy from $37.00 back to 26.00-29.00 with an all in rate of $35.00 $43.58 is where I calculate we should be based on the consumer price index . Including lost Home values and other things. That UPS is at $46.99/hr should be a number to shoot for.. But! UPS is a $100B Company while United is an $11B company. The profits nor the expenses correlate, so unless the entire $43.58 is all hourly pay toward retirement? Even if the mecahnics regain $37.00/hr? We're STILL $6.00/hr Below where we should be (By my calculations). Now nobody is going to STARVE making $36.58 where the Teamsters think we should be. BUT!! The teamsters weren't Brought IN to telll us what THEY like! They're here to DO WHAT WE told them WE want THEM to DO!! And they'd BETTER start LISTENING UP!! I'm not at ALL impressed with Clacy Griswold the Teamster Airline Rep. as I've already caught him and his "cronies" in a couple of LIES already. UPS's local 2727 doesn't answer to the Teamster National so the Teamsters Do as they're TOLD to at UPS. At United and CAL the teamsters have us split between 2 locals full of Truck Drivers. And it's MY personal belief that We should have our OWN locals Just like 2727 at UPS. And if the IBT can't get with that?? We KNOW that the IAM would bend over BACKWARDS to do our bidding.. And they KNOW the mechanics will BEND THEM OVER if they DON'T!

Dont forget to put a dollar value on the benifits you lost as well. The $43 figure would be with all the benifits restored correct?