April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

Sorry, but you are completely wrong.

At the time of the merger "snapshot" the former US Air had 5098* pilots on its seniority list. Of that 5098, 1691 (33%) were FURLOUGHED. (Reference: The Nicolau Award, page 5)

* This number also reflects the 105 CEL (Combined Eligibility List) pilots that had never flown a mainline aircraft, and 212 Mid-Atlantic Division pilots.

And...

 

[EastUS1]

Metromess: I just want the founding members to eat dog food until they die. That's Easy. We'll just sue, and sue, and sue until those pos scab pricks are penniless. All of them. Who cares if there's a 5% chance of victory, it's still a chance, but the real win is crushing the lives of you-know-who-they-are.

Yes. They are running to the hills and back to the city to wander in the streets evading your relentless pursuit. You will get them one day. The you-know-who-they-are, crushed lives, scab pricks, penniless, POSs, eating dog food until they die. What a miserable, dreaded plight they endure at the hands of the relentless, mighty, dire wolves!

Indeed, but seriously sir; what could be a more noble pursuit, or finer use of a human life's focus, than just to wish to see any others "eat dog food until they die."...or "...sue, and sue, and sue..? 🙂 You simply can't even question the true nobility of these people's righteous cause, nor dare doubt any of them as being unquestionably amongst the finest and most impeccably pure and highly evolved souls now living. Heck!...I'm almost ashamed to live on the same planet with such grand spirits...Sigh!...Seriously, I really am. 😉

Oh well. I guess we should just pay properly reverent and groveling homage to their highly evolved minds and truly great souls, awaiting the time when we're to apparently be pushed into a "sea of death". 🙂

Ummm..."Who cares if there's a 5% chance of victory,..."? There's clear evidence that the self-styled little "spartans" would have done far better hiring any available Troop of actual Girl Scouts to do their "military" planning. 🙂

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Sorry, but you are completely wrong.

At the time of the merger "snapshot" the former US Air had 5098* pilots on its seniority list. Of that 5098, 1691 (33%) were FURLOUGHED. (Reference: The Nicolau Award, page 5)

* This number also reflects the 105 CEL (Combined Eligibility List) pilots that had never flown a mainline aircraft, and 212 Mid-Atlantic Division pilots.

You are mistaken. The "snapshot" has no bearing, it was an ALPA product in their failed process.. We are no longer ALPA.

What does the NMB say?

Greeter

 

[Phoenix]

I just want the founding members to eat dog food until they die. That's Easy. We'll just sue, and sue, and sue until those pos scab pricks are penniless. All of them. Who cares if there's a 5% chance of victory, it's still a chance, but the real win is crushing the lives of you-know-who-they-are.



Indeed, but seriously sir; what could be a more noble pursuit or finer use of a human life's focus, than just to wish to see any others "eat dog food until they die."...or "...sue, and sue, and sue..? 🙂 You simply can't even question the true nobility of these people's righteous cause, nor dare doubt any of them as being unquestionably amongst the finest and most impeccably pure and highly evolved souls now living. heck!...I'm almost ashamed to live on the same planet with such grand spirits...Seriously, I really am. 😉

Oh well. I guess we should just pay properly reverent and groveling homage to their highly evolved minds and truly great souls, awaiting the time when we're to apparently be pushed into a "sea of death". 🙂

I am a bit dull in my box of light bulbs, but I think you might not be as remorseful and intimidated as they envision you ought to be, your proclamations notwithstanding.

 

[EastUS1]

I am a bit dull in my box of light bulbs, but I think you might not be as remorseful and intimidated as they envision you ought to be, your proclamations notwithstanding.

🙂 I'll confess that I might have some issues passing a polygraph with the spoken "remorse" above...well..save for the portion: "Heck!...I'm almost ashamed to live on the same planet with such grand spirits...Seriously, I really am." 😉

 

[usabusdriver]

Let's assume its ripe for hypothetical purposes, because it eventually will be.

What will be the standard to determine if USAPA has breached its DFR, and what fact(s) will be compared to that standard? That is to say, lets clarify what terms must be employed by the courts when it is ripe in order to judge if USAPA, or any successor union, has indeed breached its DFR. I'll even spot you an important fact.... USAPA will never agree to anything that uses the NIC.

Now, which standard will the court stipulate for use:

1) Will the standard be a LUP, with the alleged motives of USAPA being compared to the LUP standard (whatever that nebulous, so-called "standard" is)? First off, even if one wins such a lawsuit, how does one determine actual damages based on some subjective thing like a union's "purpose was naughty", rather than on something concrete like the union's representational product was demonstrably unfair?

2) Will the standard be strict compliance of all contractual requirements in force at the time of ripeness, as compared to USAPA's fulfillment of those contractual requirements, irrespective of the end product of negotiations? (i.e. Does the outcome of negotiations matter at all, or is it only the compliance with contracts in force that matter?) It is worth noting that the West premise to their allegation of ripeness is based solely on USAPA's supposed non-compliance with the TA (a minor dispute), and no court has found USAPA to be in non-compliance with any contract.

OR... 3) Will the standard be a "wide range of reasonableness" for the end product, with the end product of negotiations being compared to that explicit standard as rendered by the SCOTUS?



What is the measure of fairness... and is fairness revealed (and judged) according to one's purpose or by one's product?

Good questions.

1) I think it will be incumbent on the union to demonstrate in a clear and straightforward manner how the bargaining unit as a whole benefits from not using the Nicolau award. The subject of damages would be based on the complaint. If a plaintiff does not request a relief, it cannot be granted. AFAIK the only thing requested is an injunction preventing the union from using anything other than the Nicolau in the SLI proceedings with APA, and attorneys fees. In your hypothetical damages would have to be argued from the facts at hand concerning how the plaintiffs have been harmed from the action of the DFR. In this case concerning seniority it would be messy.

2) It only matters if the court determines that the union is bound by the tenants of the current TA to the Nicolau award. Both Wake and Silver have said previously that the union is bound by the current TA and that is where a LUP comes into play. If the court determines that the union's future agreements must comply with the specified tenants (Nicolau) unless they have specifically negotiated for some aspect in the new agreement to offset for the change then the union must show how they crafted this in the MOU.

3) The "wide range of reasonableness" argument IMHO is not applicable in this instance. The reason is that seniority is a zero sum issue, one pilot's gain is another pilot's loss. There is no vehicle by which the "effects" of the change in the seniority system can be mitigated or offset in other parts of the collective bargaining agreement because it is strictly an SLI process.

Fairness: Always lies in the eyes of the beholder. I do believe purpose and product are important, but in this instance I think that process is also an important piece.

 

[Phoenix]

You are mistaken. The "snapshot" has no bearing, it was an ALPA product in their failed process.. We are no longer ALPA.

What does the NMB say?

Greeter

Does the NMB entertain questions regarding events of antiquity?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Does the NMB entertain questions regarding events of antiquity?

They don't have to. There are specific timeline events recorded that define our actual merger.

But then again, it remains to be seen if Harper even knows who our current Officers are. He also has a history 🙂

Greeter

 

[traderjake]

Former BPR Rep David Braid on PIC Debacle: April 29, 2013

Here is a surprise, you have not read much about the PIC. So you really have no idea what is going on. So far the PIC has spent $4 million of your money and going to spend another $500,000 of general finds that they were never supposed to spend. $4.5 million dollars and you don’t read much.

This issue was debated and decided almost 4 years ago. It was determined that the PIC investigation was really outside the duty of a union and that it would only benefit a limited number of pilots, that those pilots should pay for the investigation. West pilots and east pilots hired after 1999 don’t receive any PBGC payments so there is nothing to gain for them.

Tell me Ron what is the payback for west pilots and our dues money to fund a law suit they will lose? What is the legitimate union purpose for using general funds for something that does not benefit ALL the pilots?

You do know that the PIC was by resolution supposed to be funded by assessment and not to use general funds.

You do know that the PIC came to the BPR several times crying and accusing the secretary/treasurer that he was not crediting the committee with the funds and that somehow Streble was shorting them. The PIC demanded a full audit of the funds. After spending $10,000 it was determined that every penny was accounted for. So over a year ago the PIC knew they were going to run out of money. At a PBR meeting I called them on this very fact. When I asked if they had enough money to finish the job they all shrugged their shoulders and shook their head.

You do know that it is the S/T job to protect the union funds. It was also the PIC’s duty to operate within their known budget. I never thought I would see the day that Rob Streble would allow someone to steal from the union but he did.

Streble allowed and the PIC intentionally overspent that budget. Streble should have informed the board when the PIC funds dropped below $200,000 so the BPR could fully debate and allow the pilots to decide what to do. Instead the S/T allowed the committee to overspend and cut into general funds after the fact. This would be like authorizing a charge on your credit card of $100. The next thing you know they hit you for $200. Would that be theft?

USAPA update 4/19/2013



During questions following the presentation, Dave Westberg stated that going into the trial the PIC had $300,000, but after two months of depositions, trial and closing briefs, the PIC was short $189,000. The money has been paid using the union's General Funds. Attorney David Butler guaranteed a flat rate appeal cost (if an appeal is necessary) of $250,000 plus expenses.
The PIC knew they were over budget and continued spending money they did not have and just expected the rest of us to pay their bill. The update says that the PIC was short. Do you have a copy of the authorization for the PIC to spend general funds? Spending money without authorization is called what Ron?

You do know that appealing a case you lose is not required right? Sometime you just can’t afford it.
USAPA update 4/19/2013



He stated that to continue to pursue the PBGC through an appeal process would cost approximately $300,000 and that the committee feels strongly that we should do so if necessary. The PIC does not want to pursue more funds through another assessment, and looked to the Board for funding.

Why does the committee not want to hold another vote for more assessment? Because they knew the vote would fail? Instead just steal it from the general fund against our will. What about the line pilot determining and voting on all the important stuff of the union as promised? Do you think any of those weak willed BPR members would have the stones to vote against this and have to deal with the wrath of angry east pilots?

What happens if the lawyers "flat rate" is over his quote? We all get to write another check? What if the PIC wants to go to SCOTUS? Write another check because they think it is the right thing to do?

The PIC is going to lose this case. Have you read the transcript form the trial? The judge asked USAPA what the pilots hope to gain from this. After three days the judge still did not see why he should grant USAPA their ask.

Yet instead of walking away they are going to spend another $300,000. For what?

You have what the PIC calls their “smoking gun” document that they say explains it all. That was the mandate of the committee to find out what happened right? So what more do you or any east pilots hope to gain from another $500,000 of my money?

Yet again this is a case of east pilots not liking the result and changing the rules in the middle of the game. The PIC will be funded by assessment, run out of money change the rules and take it out of general funds. Is there anything you east pilots believe in and can follow the rules except take what you want and screw everyone else?

I truly dislike liars and thieves, as should everyone. For the last eight years the west has had to deal with liars and thieves and you on a daily basis defend them.

 

[traderjake]

You are mistaken. The "snapshot" has no bearing, it was an ALPA product in their failed process.

 

[Claxon]

LUP. Do you live under a rock? A Jury already smoked you on the Merits and every single Judge that has ever even commented on this situation has very directly warned the company and USAPA about their intentions. Why else is USCABA betting its life on ripeness? It's their only hope. But you can't run forever. I'm 98% sure this is the end game.

98% sure? Not good enough. Polygraphing you is the only sure method of determining your truthfulness.

 

[traderjake]

There, but for fortune, go any of us...and every day's a precious gift.

Absolutely, any day you're not dead or in jail is a good one.

 

[EastUS1]

Former BPR Rep David Braid

Umm...Not at all impressed here. That'd be the very same, lispy David Braid that was so worshiping and far up the 9th Circuit's arse that he couldn't see straight, even on video describing them as a "massive display of legal authority"...Well...before they told him and his pathetic ilk to get lost, that is. 🙂 It was eerily akin to watching some home movie of a little kid on his first trip ever to "the big city"....Golly Mom!!!...LOOK!!! "a massive display of legal authority"!!!...Wowee Gosh! 😉

The little AOL "army" of "spartans" honestly would've done far better by hiring Girl Scouts to represent their interests. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

Absolutely, any day you're not dead or in jail is a good one.

Indeed. 🙂

 

[prechilill]

And...

The point flew over your head Scott. Look up! You see Cactus approaching 26- how is the dry geat treating you these days? You coming back ever???