April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[doh nogo]

It is career expectations at the time of merger. It's independent of the merger, hence the maintain career expectations part. I'm afraid pilots that are furloughed from a soon to liquidate company do not have career expectations.

Bean

This is exactly right. You can't compare pre merger expectations with anything that happens post merger. Post merger business decisions and opportunities reflect the combined entity, not what would have happened absent the merger. So while agree that furloughed pilots certainly DO have career expectations at their pre-merged airline, those expectations differ greatly depending on the condition of the airline at the time of the merger. AA furloughed pilots, absent a merger, certainly had an expectation to return to flying and progress eventually to widebody captains based on attrition and fleet count alone, even post bankruptcy. Let's remember that AA filed for BK with enough money to exit BK standalone, so their continued existence was never in doubt. US Airways was in a much different situation, with no exit financing and no options left, facing liquidation absent the merger - within days. So the career expectations of furloughed pilots can certainly be on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Look at UA and CO as another example. They just filed their pre-arbitration positions, and a large number of UA furloughed pilots not only had more LOS than active CO pilots, but ALSO had a career expectation of returning to UA and retiring as widebody captains based on retirements, age, and fleet count at the time of the merger, as opposed to many CO pilots who would peak at narrowbody captain even without ever being furloughed, again based on their fleet composition.

Bottom line is that absent our merger, US pilots had very little expectation being employed. And even IF financing was found and BK exit was assured (which it was not), the furloughed US pilots would only have had the expectation of returning to the right seat of an RJ or 320, and little expectation of ever seeing the left seat of the 320 before retirement again. Those that did get to the left seat of the 320 for a short time would almost certainly not see the the left seat of the 330. It is a simple mathematical equation based on retirements and static fleet at the time of the merger.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

And AWA existence was never in doubt? Pleez, Gotta luv that logic, I assume your a WEST pilot and your career goals and expectations are what? Your seniority list (PHX) has NO WIDEBODIES, nun the less any expectaion of flying one, absent a JCBA! Unless you excepted recall EAST with your proper adjusted EAST DOH, Gotta luv attrition and didn't DUI DOUG or SCOTCH say in a Crew news video, NO GROWTH IN PHX for 4 years, gotta luv the WEST career goals and expectations!

 

[Phoenix]

. She did not she wants a valid LUP.

Liar.

Cite the paragraph she ordered a deadline and venue where she must receive a LUP. She did no such thing.

For that matter show us where she ordered anybody to bring her anything.

Pants on fire. 🙂

 

[Phoenix]

Clear nails it.

Clear is either delusional or a liar. He said USAPA missed a filing deadline and would lose because of being in default.

Here is a chance for Clear to redeem him/herself....

Clear has been a one track record about LUP, LUP, LUP, LUP, LUP.... Well surely Clear can tell us the date at which USAPA will be in default for failing to provide Silver with a LUP... Come on Clear... This is your chance to prove you are the legal genius...

At what date will USAPA be in default for failure to provide a LUP?

Put up or shut up. 🙂

 

[nevergiveup]

Good luck with that, they don't seem to like reality, and your right on with the lists.

When we were to vote for the MOU after the board approved the merger, G. Hummel stepped in and changed the rules. I think he will do the same and allow a 3 list merger. Not saying I want him to, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[nevergiveup]

This is exactly right. You can't compare pre merger expectations with anything that happens post merger. Post merger business decisions and opportunities reflect the combined entity, not what would have happened absent the merger. So while agree that furloughed pilots certainly DO have career expectations at their pre-merged airline, those expectations differ greatly depending on the condition of the airline at the time of the merger. AA furloughed pilots, absent a merger, certainly had an expectation to return to flying and progress eventually to widebody captains based on attrition and fleet count alone, even post bankruptcy. Let's remember that AA filed for BK with enough money to exit BK standalone, so their continued existence was never in doubt. US Airways was in a much different situation, with no exit financing and no options left, facing liquidation absent the merger - within days. So the career expectations of furloughed pilots can certainly be on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Look at UA and CO as another example. They just filed their pre-arbitration positions, and a large number of UA furloughed pilots not only had more LOS than active CO pilots, but ALSO had a career expectation of returning to UA and retiring as widebody captains based on retirements, age, and fleet count at the time of the merger, as opposed to many CO pilots who would peak at narrowbody captain even without ever being furloughed, again based on their fleet composition.

Bottom line is that absent our merger, US pilots had very little expectation being employed. And even IF financing was found and BK exit was assured (which it was not), the furloughed US pilots would only have had the expectation of returning to the right seat of an RJ or 320, and little expectation of ever seeing the left seat of the 320 before retirement again. Those that did get to the left seat of the 320 for a short time would almost certainly not see the the left seat of the 330. It is a simple mathematical equation based on retirements and static fleet at the time of the merger.

Nice try.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Which LUP has the company accepted?

If wide range of reasonableness was the answer why did not judge Silver not list that as the excuse? If that were a valid LUP she could have said usapa can use anything they want because of their wide range of reasonableness. She did not she wants a valid LUP.

Usapa has not given one. They threw out a lot of excuses during Addington I but those were all shot down.

Why is the company appealing the DJ if usapa can do whatever they want? If wide range is valid? The company right now has to determine if the LUP usapa gives is legal and valid. The company does not want the liability. Thus the appeal.

Wide range is not a valid LUP. Try again. Wide range is not a shield that can deflect all DFRs. Besides ignoring arbitration and imposing what a group wants is not within a wide range. It is unreasonable.

Maybe not, but the burden of proof falls on AwFOL, and your burden of proof is a very high hurdle. If it gets to the trial it won't be a jury trial because issue will strictly be an issue of law and not of fact. The trial judge will rule and you'll lose, as always, because the fact pattern is other than what Wake would allow. You'll see. SYIC!

 

[prechilill]

You do know San Fancisco trumps Phoenix, always. What is AOL's fear in litigating in the court that actually already decided your dispute and will continue to do so?

One word: RIPE

The west is giddy over USAP's stupidity, you handed us a contract with the APA and gave us the keys to victory with Phoenix and San Francisco. Thank you!!!!

 

[prechilill]

Clear is either delusional or a liar. He said USAPA missed a filing deadline and would lose because of being in default.

Here is a chance for Clear to redeem him/herself....

Clear has been a one track record about LUP, LUP, LUP, LUP, LUP.... Well surely Clear can tell us the date at which USAPA will be in default for failing to provide Silver with a LUP... Come on Clear... This is your chance to prove you are the legal genius...

At what date will USAPA be in default for failure to provide a LUP?

Put up or shut up. 🙂

So SCOTT, what's the LUP? LOL

Hint: You're the one that has to come up with one, not us.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

One word: RIPE

The west is giddy over USAP's stupidity, you handed us a contract with the APA and gave us the keys to victory with Phoenix and San Francisco. Thank you!!!!

Two words: NOT RIPE

The same set of facts exist today that did before Judge Silver. She affirmed the Ninth's ruling that USAPA is free to present its own senioirity list. Nothing changed there. That when that process is complete and the seniority list is ratified into a contract and only then a party may make a claim that their right to DFR was breached. As before, absolutely nothing has changed and thay may be anwhere from 1 1/2-3 years before that process is complete and those ripeness triggers have been met. Of course it must be proven once all that takes place that USAPA has breached one the three pillars of DFR which is a wide standard of reasonableness. It will not be Nic or nothing if it makes it to trial but an actual review of whatever the final seniority product is was a reasonable attempt to represent "all" US Airways pilots in an equitable manner without discriminating, being arbitrary, or acting in bad faith. Not your interpretation of these requirements, but the legal requirements as have been supported by case law.

 

[cleardirect]

You do know San Fancisco trumps Phoenix, always. What is AOL's fear in litigating in the court that actually already decided your dispute and will continue to do so?

Learn your civics.

You don't litigate in the court of appeals.

The ninth said Addington I was not ripe in 2008.

It is ripe in 2012 and the district court is the only place to litigate.

 

[luvthe9]

And AWA existence was never in doubt? Pleez,

......."PROJECT ZANZIBAR" ring a bell.

 

[luvthe9]

When we were to vote for the MOU after the board approved the merger, G. Hummel stepped in and changed the rules. I think he will do the same and allow a 3 list merger. Not saying I want him to, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Sign the recall form!!!!!!

 

[cleardirect]

Clear is either delusional or a liar. He said USAPA missed a filing deadline and would lose because of being in default.

Here is a chance for Clear to redeem him/herself....

Clear has been a one track record about LUP, LUP, LUP, LUP, LUP.... Well surely Clear can tell us the date at which USAPA will be in default for failing to provide Silver with a LUP... Come on Clear... This is your chance to prove you are the legal genius...

At what date will USAPA be in default for failure to provide a LUP?

Put up or shut up. 🙂

The filing deadline was April 4 there was not an order allowing the delay at the time. So yes usapa missed the deadline. The court came back and granted more time but not all usapa requested.

Usapa will be in default as soon as they present a seniority list other than the Nicolau with an LUP. If will be up to the company to,decide if that LUP is legitimate or not and to accept another list or not. The companies fear is the accept an LUP that is not valid. They wate a lot of time and are now liable for,damages. The company does not want to make the decision first before a trial. Judge Silver did not say usapa had a valid LUP she said you need one. If she thought you had one why not just say. This is a valid LUP and move on? Or if she thought usapa had an LUP she could have just said usapa can use any list they want.

Silver requires an LUP. The company has to agree to it. Usapa has not expressed a valid LUP yet.

Until usapa can get the company and a court to sign off on an LUP. The Nicolau is the list. The deadline for the LUP is the day usapa tries to use something other than the Nicolau.

 

[traderjake]

Sign the recall form!!!!!!

Another petition to force a DOH negotiating stategy?

What'd that work last time?