April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Zone5]

It's going to be over VERY SOON.

Really? Just what does that mean? It is kind of a "relative term", I mean are we talking in terms of "dog years" or perhaps how "soon" continents drift apart?


seajay

 

[EastUS1]

It's going to be over VERY SOON.

Cool. When's the party scheduled for? 🙂

 

[nevergiveup]

Same east idiots posting. Different day. Glad to see east(hole)us is out of rehab. You guys are a hoot. Oh, well, another 3 minutes wasted on this forum.

Same idiots reading.

 

[Pi brat]

Or.....You could be held to your word. Nah, why on earth would we EVER expect that from you boys? Don't worry. It's going to be over VERY SOON.

By April? That seems to be the usual date given on one of your lawsuits.

 

[767jetz]

CAL Pilots Opening Statement to SLI:

[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]BEFORE THE SENIORITY INTEGRATION ARBITRATION BOARD DANA E. EISCHEN, ROGER KAPLAN AND DENNIS R. NOLAN[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]___________________________________ :[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]In the matter of the seniority : integration between :[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]THE PILOTS OF CONTINENTAL : AIRLINES :[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]AND : THE PILOTS OF UNITED AIR LINES :[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]___________________________________ :[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]ARBITRATION PRE-HEARING STATEMENT OF THE CONTINENTAL PILOTS’ MERGER COMMITTEE[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]The Continental Merger Committee proposes to integrate the Continental and United pilot seniority lists by merging [/background]Captains with Captains and First Officers with First Officers.[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)] Although many have advocated extreme positions in prior cases involving seniority list integration (SLI), the Continental Merger Committee has determined that proposing a reasonable resolution of this dispute will better serve the interests of the combined pilot group. Thus, notwithstanding the superior equities the Continental pilots bring to the merged airline, we offer the Arbitration Board a moderate proposal, which it can adopt as its own.[/background]

prechilill,

Just want to point out not to make too many comparisons just yet about the position of either the CAL or UAL merger committees. Each merger turns on it's own facts, and the bottom line is that the final ruling will be binding, and will probably not look exactly like either side's opening proposal, and the the CAL and UAL pilots will accept the ISL and move on when the dust settles.

That being said, there are some interesting observations to point out. First of all, the CAL attorney is the same one who represented the east pilots (and the NW pilots). He went from supporting straight DOH to now slotting captains with captains and f/os with f/os. Of course, he also has a responsibility to represent the will of his clients. Secondly, the CAL position clearly avoids reference to ALPA merger policy. They even go so far as to claim that their narrow body 757's should be considered wide body aircraft because they are ETOPS. (go figure.) True to form, he is trying to throw as much "you know what" against the wall, hoping some of it will stick.

IMO the UAL position as stated in their opening letter is far more comprehensive, factual, and not as over-reaching. The circumstances surrounding the CAL/UAL merger are far different from those surrounding AWA/USA. Time will tell, and the arbitrators' ruling and explanations will be quite an interesting read. I am making no predictions at this point. But I am comfortable with our position and representation. Stay tuned.

PS. One of my overriding concerns and interest in the AWA/USA SLI award was the effect it would have on the CAL/UAL merger through any precedent. The Nicolau award is already referenced by both sides. Ironically, it is now the UAL SLI award that may actually effect the AMR/USA SLI. Interesting times...

 

[Claxon]

Jeff Freund, UAL Now, Dan Katz CAL now, Seve Gillen UAL Jim Brucia CAL have to argue opposite of what their points were in the US Airways, america west debacle.

Jeff Freund opening statement excerpts;

"Prior to 2009, ALPA Merger Policy, as it
13 had evolved over the years, de-emphasized date-based
14 solutions to seniority integration to the point
15 where, when Dan and I got together, along with Jim
16 Brucia, who was sitting on the panel, and Steve
17 Gillen, on my side, who was sitting on the panel,
18 both as pilot neutrals in the case, got together in
19 US Airways and America West, ALPA Merger Policy had
20 removed reference to longevity entirely from policy.
21 And my group argued that. I represented
22 the America West pilots.

I observed that in one of -- one of the
3 ironies in life is that Dan is on this side of this
4 case and I'm on the other side of this case, and we
5 were in a sense on opposite sides of this argument
6 and this circumstance when we did US Airways and
7 America West.
8 Jim Brucia was one of the panel members in
9 that case. Jim and I go back a long way. I have
10 great respect for Jim.
11 Sitting as a pilot neutral in that case,
12 even in the face of ALPA Merger Policy, which at the
13 time did not -- did not honor at all longevity or
14 date of hire, Captain Brucia argued that George
15 Nicolau's creation of a list that did not honor, to
16 some degree at least, longevity was simply, in his
17 mind, an inappropriate result."

 

[nycbusdriver]

Frequently visiting the bathroom is no excuse for anything... you should walk away from the computer... just walk away...

P.S. About the long haul flights Larry, is it easier to do the TLV or the shorter legs like FRA?

Makes little difference to me, Curly.

Why? Are you planning a vacation? You'll never get to work either from the cockpit. But, be sure to come up before flight and I can give you a tour (please be medicated, though.)

Also, don't give your identity up to any of the F/Os. They will likely tear you apart.

 

[Claxon]

prechilill,

Just want to point out not to make too many comparisons just yet about the position of either the CAL or UAL merger committees. Each merger turns on it's own facts, and the bottom line is that the final ruling will be binding, and will probably not look exactly like either side's opening proposal, and the the CAL and UAL pilots will accept the ISL and move on when the dust settles.

That being said, there are some interesting observations to point out. First of all, the CAL attorney is the same one who represented the east pilots (and the NW pilots). He went from supporting straight DOH to now slotting captains with captains and f/os with f/os. Of course, he also has a responsibility to represent the will of his clients. Secondly, the CAL position clearly avoids reference to ALPA merger policy. They even go so far as to claim that their narrow body 757's should be considered wide body aircraft because they are ETOPS. (go figure.) True to form, he is trying to throw as much "you know what" against the wall, hoping some of it will stick.

IMO the UAL position as stated in their opening letter is far more comprehensive, factual, and not as over-reaching. The circumstances surrounding the CAL/UAL merger are far different from those surrounding AWA/USA. Time will tell, and the arbitrators' ruling and explanations will be quite an interesting read. I am making no predictions at this point. But I am comfortable with our position and representation. Stay tuned.

PS. One of my overriding concerns and interest in the AWA/USA SLI award was the effect it would have on the CAL/UAL merger through any precedent. The Nicolau award is already referenced by both sides. Ironically, it is now the UAL SLI award that may actually effect the AMR/USA SLI. Interesting times...

The AMR/USA list will not go to arbitration. APA pilots will not allow a Nicolau dibacle.

I will be posting more of the UAL CAL transcripts to highlight your change of position in seniority lists over the years, NIMBY breath.

 

[Portly Dorman]

The AMR/USA list will not go to arbitration. APA pilots will not allow a Nicolau dibacle.

I will be posting more of the UAL CAL transcripts to highlight your change of position in seniority lists over the years, NIMBY breath.

So the APA will accept DOH. Ok, and the east gets to write the "C&Rs" right? APA will love having the top 50% of the list end up with a 35-65 split biasing the east. No arbitration. Sure why not.

 

[nevergiveup]

So the APA will accept DOH. Ok, and the east gets to write the "C&Rs" right? APA will love having the top 50% of the list end up with a 35-65 split biasing the east. No arbitration. Sure why not.

You yourself would accept DOH if the C&Rs were right.

 

[cleardirect]

You yourself would accept DOH if the C&Rs were right.

History and law suits prove you wrong.

There are no C&R that make DOH fair in the merger between east and west. The west told you 5 years ago no DOH. We are telling you today. No DOH. Besides usapa has not changed their crappy offer a single period.

You are wrong. The west will not accept DOH no matter what the C&R.

Clear enough even for you to understand.

 

[EastUS1]

The west told you 5 years ago no DOH. We are telling you today. No DOH.

Clear enough even for you to understand.

1) How very impressive, little "spartan". Keep "telling" us, if it makes you feel any better. Perhaps it's escaped your notice, for nearly six years now, that both groups have not been bidding anything based on whatever your ferocious band tells anyone....? 🙂

2) "Clear enough even for you to understand."...? 😉

 

[EastUS1]

So the APA will accept DOH. ............. No arbitration. Sure why not.

I'd say the APA's notions aren't yet known to any degree of absolute certainty, but your fantasized support and universal acceptance for your disgusting little nic scam's not gaining much headway among many of the American folks. Pay particular attention to the posting 4th from the top:

http://www.airlinepi...w-truth-18.html

 

[Portly Dorman]

You yourself would accept DOH if the C&Rs were right.

East get all and the west gets nothing. That's fair.

After all the east is the final arbiter on what fair and equitable.

 

[prechilill]

You mean this one:


Wheels up
Gets Weekends Off


Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 386

All of this bickering is irrelevant. The SLI talks will fail (due to the APA refusing to get embroiled and responsible for US Airways/AW debacle). The SLI will then go to the arbitrators. Regardless, I don't see how the arbitrators can ignore the Nic list . . . . by their fellow arbitrator.

Someone explain how they could.