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EastUS
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QUOTE (EastUS @ Jun 5 2008, 06:30 AM)
Politics aside..To those who've perished, I offer my prayers. For those who'd "PROUDLY" desert...I offer my utmost contempt."
I well recall those times, and am quite fine with my observations above. "Some of them went to Canada instead." What would you suggest in the way of Heroic Medals for them? "Knight of the Sacred Order of the Running Rabbit with Maple Leaf Cluster"? Perhaps "The Self-Interest Service Star with Yellow Back-Band"? Heck...maybe even a Pink Heart for those that actually burned their precious fingertips while burning their draft cards.......
Politics aside..To those who've perished, I offer my prayers. For those who'd "PROUDLY" desert...I offer my utmost contempt."
I well recall those times, and am quite fine with my observations above. "Some of them went to Canada instead." What would you suggest in the way of Heroic Medals for them? "Knight of the Sacred Order of the Running Rabbit with Maple Leaf Cluster"? Perhaps "The Self-Interest Service Star with Yellow Back-Band"? Heck...maybe even a Pink Heart for those that actually burned their precious fingertips while burning their draft cards.......
KCFlyer
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You know East - as hard as it might be for you to take, those kids that "burned their precious fingertips while burning their draft cards" had an awful lot in common with our founding fathers. Our founding fathers didn't agree with the government they were living under in England, so they left. As it turns out, they were right. Just like the "draft dodgers" were right...Vietnam was a war that should never have been waged....just like Iraq. The only difference is that they were being FORCED to go fight a war they disagreed with.
And that's why I say, if the draft would have been in place on 9/12/2001, or reinstated when Bush declared war not just on the Taliban and bin laden but on terror in general - which he should have done in order to take on a much more large scale effort such as terrorism in general (however, an election year was coming up and that "wouldn't have been prudent"), then the American public would not so easily have agreed to send our troops into Iraq. But since it wasn't THEIR sons or daughters being sent to Iraq, it was far easier to slap a yellow ribbon on the car to "show support" while quietly thanking God that their kids weren't subject to a draft.
NewHampshire Black Bears
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EastUS,
Guys , who WISELY get a leave while in Iraq, and DON'T return, are not even procecuted nowadays.
I WONDER WHY that is EastUS. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that.."this" is a PHONEY war, is it ??
I can't even come close to Imagining...ANYTHING more Depressing, than some poor Bastard, who lost LIFE, or Limb for that DUMB F*** ......EL-CHIMPO and his Phoney war/Iraq.
I've said it Numerous times on here, that the 2 MOST Dangerous things going, are Religious FANATICS, and............Blind PATRIOTS
Harsh words perhaps, but I can't feel sorry for some Idiot, who "Buys it" in Iraq.
(Just the poor friends and Family left behind)
You know, the American Indians were famous for flying "old Glory"..UPSIDE DOWN, when Washington was trying to run "some PHONEY SH!T" past them.
I think until the CRAP in IRAQ is terminated, that OG should be flown UPSIDE DOWN !!!!!!!!!!
(I have NO beef with the Afganistan conflict)
KC, that is a popular argument but admit it. It is a bit of a stretch. One group decides to go to a new land and create a new country. The other group just runs away to hide in another country. One group takes on huge new responsibilities. The other group abdicates theirs.
IF they truly believed in their cause they could have opted out as a CO. Many did and those who took that courageous route, I salute. The others didn't really take a stand. They took the easy way out. Yes, it cost them and it should have. TNSTAAFL (there's no such thing as a free lunch).
And yes, it was probably right to pardon them but the sometimes silly effort to create a statue or some monument to these men? No way. I think you mentioned it is easy for someone to be a patriot when their kid is not in combat. But it is NO patriot that runs away when his/her country calls.
KCFlyer
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You're getting closer...this "patriot" who has two sons of age to serve in the military (but aren't in the military) and supported GWB and his war on Saddam by putting a little yellow ribbon on the back of her car...if the draft were reinstated - her boys would be on the first flight to Toronto - she'd pay for the ticket. THAT is what I mean by "it's easy to be a patriot when your son or daughter isn't on the front line". How can one "conscientiously object" when they "support" our troops and their "commander (and I use that word loosely) in chief"...especially when said commander openly urges our enemy to attack by telling them "bring 'em on". As I said - Bush should have been impeached as incompetent to lead the armed forces the second those words left his lips.
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EastUS
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"Guys , who WISELY get a leave while in Iraq, and DON'T return, are not even procecuted nowadays." Well Golly!..Everything's fine then!?...and cowardice really IS a "virtue" in your mind. Note that for any that "WISELY" leave..another actual human being with a backbone has to fill their slot. your "WISELY" equates to "I"m special!..It's ALL about MEEE!" and is contempatble BS of the highest order....period.
Goody for you as per Afghanistan....Did I miss something in the Oath about being able to cherry pick one's wars?...Guess I must have. So it's only an issue of Duty and Honor...only whenever it suits any given person? I think not.
KCFlyer: "You know East - as hard as it might be for you to take, those kids that "burned their precious fingertips while burning their draft cards" had an awful lot in common with our founding fathers" Yeah...Riiight...sure they did. In case it's escaped you = said founding fathers had spines and actual ideals that went far beyond "I'm scared and I want my Mommy!"..The founding fathers fully realized the distinct danger of ending up dangling from British ropes...not to mention the first President, who was personally well proven on battlefields. ANY comparison with a buncha' draft-doging swine's highly absurd in the extreme.
As for the standard chickensh-t "liberal" BS about how easy it is to "be a patriot" when no loved ones are at issue? I served in the gulf in 90-91 myself, and my youngest step-son has two tours completed in Iraq. Spare me any of the standard BS from any sources about how "easy" it is. Sorry if that's a bit course..but I do, very completely, understand what it's like to have a young life, more precious than one's own...in that "place".
This isn't any political beliefs issue for me, and I've the fullest contempt for Bush Jr, who, unlike his father...was just too darn "precious" to actually fight. The Clintons and their ilk are unworthy of even commenting on.
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Cosworth
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Why is it during WW II there was not shortage of volunteers to go fight yet for Viet Nam, and the Gulf there is?
I would argue that it less to do with cowardice than with the fact that everyone knows it's a war that need not have been fought. Fortunately I was under age when the draft was in effect and over age now. I would be right beside Bear on my way to Canada were that not the situation.
One more thing. Were it not for the people who would not serve and the folks who got out and protested, who would have been there to tell the government that what they were doing was wrong and that they did not have the support of the people they were elected to govern?
BTW, what makes Clinton and worse than Bush as far as service is concerned? Are you sure you're not a republican?
I would argue that it less to do with cowardice than with the fact that everyone knows it's a war that need not have been fought. Fortunately I was under age when the draft was in effect and over age now. I would be right beside Bear on my way to Canada were that not the situation.
One more thing. Were it not for the people who would not serve and the folks who got out and protested, who would have been there to tell the government that what they were doing was wrong and that they did not have the support of the people they were elected to govern?
BTW, what makes Clinton and worse than Bush as far as service is concerned? Are you sure you're not a republican?
It is really nice how you went back and edited and augmented your message after I had posted my reply. Adding out of context snippets and self-serving statements by the accused does not prove anything.
Are you suggesting that the incidents I referred to did not take place? Are you contesting that twenty-four Iraqis, men, women and children were killed in Haditha? Are you denying that at least fifteen of those killed were noncombatants? Are you challenging that the killings were retribution for an attack a Marines' convoy in which Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas was killed? Are you refuting that five Iraqis, a taxi driver and four teenagers, were ordered out of their car and shot dead execution style? Are you saying that Marines did not go into three houses and killed nineteen people including women, children and old people? Are you contesting that an intelligence squad took pictures shortly after the shootings that were inconsistent with the Marines' report of a firefight?
There may be issues concerning who is responsible for these atrocities. The military courts may be whitewashing these incidents. However, there is no doubt whether they took place.
We are not Nazi Germany. I expect better from our military.
PBS - Frontline
60 Minutes - The Killings In Haditha
CBS - Prosecutors: Unaired "60 Minutes" Footage Has Marine's Admission Of Crimes In Iraq Massacre
BBC News - What happened at Haditha?
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EastUS
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Easy fix for that then = Get your pathetic, "liberal" arse over there and show everyone how it should be done 🙄
I won't even dignify accusations of fantasized atrocities by our forces there..except to note that people can't even shoot stupid "holy" books without an uproar....and only the basest, most vile, and extremely agendized buffoons could imagine "Nazi" behavior over there....at least from our side.
Personally? "I expect better from our" supposed citizens.
KCFlyer
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You're scanning...not reading East. You and your family have made a sacrifice for the country - you served, your stepson served. I never said THAT was easy.
What I am saying is the republican soccer moms who DON'T have any of their kids in the military find it very easy to put a yellow ribbon on the back of their car and consider themselves a "patriot". But when someone points out that should a draft be reinstated, her sons are prime candidates for service in the war she supports - somehow her support drops just a bit. Had a draft been in place - which it should have the second that Bush the Wunderwarpresident declared war not just on bin laden and al queda, but on terrorism itself - then perhaps the good "patriots" with no skin in the game might have stepped back a second and asked their congressman "Why are we going after Saddam again?" before the vote was taken to invade a country that didn't do anything to the US in the first place. So if your scanning instead of reading I'll bold this so that it might attract your attention It is easier to claim you are a patriot and support a war by slapping a yellow ribbon on your car than it is to send a loved one to the battlefield.
I sort of agree with you on this, but I will never forgive GHW Bush for golfing and fishing and boating on what seemed to be a daily basis when he sent soldiers into Kuwait.
And you dodged the subject. You said draft dodgers had much in common with the founding fathers of this country and I strongly disagree.
And yes, many in this country would flee before serving but that has little to do with a non-existent draft but rather with a society that is self-absorbed, ego-centric and seemingly growing more and more immature with every week.
It is easy to blame the politicians or 'big ___" (insert whatever target one wishes be it 'big oil', 'big medicine'. "Big" being the operative word to insinuate nefarious and unethical motives/actions). But the facts are WE elect these clowns, we empower them and then people complain about 'politicians'. Odd behavior.
And to just add a lighter but illustrative point, recently a D from California proposed that people suffering from alopecia receive 1 'device' per year from the government to help them deal with their malady. Our elected officials now want to give 'rugs' to bald men and women.
Sometimes one just has to wonder where reality ends and fantasy begins.
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EastUS
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I've no argument with the first, and agree on the second. In actual fact..I'll never forgive the SOB mostly, for his "Agression is defeated..the war is over" that left an utterly routed enemy to retrench their power base, and provide for the current mess. I'm a bit "old fashioned" in that I think it appropriate to only end wars when the enemy's fully defeated, knows they're defeated, and surrenders unconditionally. Otherwise?...we get the type of crap we've seen for decades now...and yet another generation's blood is spilt over it.
As for any supporting draft dodgers? Words fail me. I'll go with Redbird on that = "And yes, many in this country would flee before serving but that has little to do with a non-existent draft but rather with a society that is self-absorbed, ego-centric and seemingly growing more and more immature with every week."
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EastUS
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Do I actually, even possibly..have this right? = Presuming that you were again, magically of Draft age: You'd run to Canada...and seemingly imply that being within some rabble of "protesters" in ANY way equates to actual service?...by ANY possible, moral measurement!!?? :blink: 🙄
That's indeed a "good one" "I would argue that it less to do with cowardice.." I'm sure that you would 😉 Allow others of us to fully differ......
Addendum...My laughter's subsided sufficiently to again type 😉....So..in essence...although you feel it incumbent on those heroic individuals who exist to "tell the government that what they were doing was wrong and that they did not have the support of the people they were elected to govern". to pursue their activities..Ummmm.rather than suffer at all yourself in that noble endeavor...Ummm...you'd personally flee to Canada? Well Golly!..Who's going to be here to keep the government in check then!? Have you NO sense of civic duty sir? 😉
You do your share of "trash-talking" about young soldiers who are actually fighting and dying...yet...you would be too inconvenienced personally..to even suffer such a small thing as possible incarceration for your most earnest "beliefs"? This is hilarious indeed. What a magnificent moral compass to have.
