As350 Problems?

[frenchwrench]

I wonder if a slipping belt could be the culprit. If you look at a how far down, rpm wise,a pilot can move the controls with hydraulic assist,down to probably 20 rpm on run down. it would seem pressure is sufficient. there is no tension check mentioned on inspections,ie,2 mm deflection at 2 kg load.The 500 cooler belt uses such a check.The astar check usually consists of listening to the twang the belt makes. I saw a peice on TV,with the gates belt rep saying how the company hated seeing people not using a tension tool to put belts on,especially timing belts, if they came out with a weight on an arm tool and a torque check to see if the belt slips, then we can eliminate belt slippage.then look at the fluid, is any other A/C having problems with 5606?I haven't heard of any..

 

[amodao]

I have had to fix hydraulic problems on Eurocopter and Bell helicopters.
Instead of fixating on the A-star's hydraulic systems engineering maybe the incidents were caused by other factors like poor overhauls, maintenance errors, or poor snag communication between pilots and engineers. Leaky servos, dirty pilot valves, improper flight control rigging, moisture in the hydraulic fluid, mixing of hydraulic fluids, weak/discharged accumilators, worn rod ends, poorly routed hoses (causing binding), induced collective bounce, improper cyclic/collective friction, improper servo shimming, faulty hydraulic manifolds/switches, broken wires, poor grounding, lack of caution light indication when malfunction arises, and numerous other problems affect the hydaulic sytems of all helicopters. I think Transport Canada's reaction to the hydraulic issue on the A-Star is unfortunate and I think they should have had a definite cause pin-pointed before issueing such a vague AD. If Transport Canada is setting a precedent and reacting to all accidents/incidents this way it will negatively affect our industry as a whole. I believe thorough investigation of all incidents/accidents is the answer and jumping to unfounded conclusions is not.

 

[Hightower]

well this is a very dear topic to a lot of us. like 4961, both myself and the other pilot in the office think that it may be something other then the hyd sys. the fact that it rolls left and not to the right and back seems to be a key point. also have done some checking with sources, and the other thing that keeps showing up here in canada is the fact that all 4 have been in cold weather. as 407 states that was not the case down south. astars having been flying for lots of years and now just in the past two, things are showing up. wonder if there has been some mods, or change in who building the parts that could be causing the problems to show. we are down at this time for a 500 and are doing the mod on the belt drive. maybe the new ad will be the ec-130 mod, two syss, one run off the new belt sys and one off the gear driven pump. could cost alot of money. last thing, i think that if we are still allowed to keep them flying then we should also be allowed to do the hyd training. if the belt breaks this will be a good thing to have, slow down 40-60 kts and get ready for a nice run on landing. if it is something else with the hyd or rotor sys, its not going to make any differance. lets hope that eurcopter and tranport can have a good look at the last aircraft and see if something shows up in the system or how it was rigged.
have a great night and a safe week flying.
longranger, i did not see you add that you wanted your 206L back....

 

[skullcap]

Sorry CTD, 407, and WOXOF, tried 2 times to reply, must be too slow typing as wouldn't allow my post, will try again tomorrow.

 

[LongRanger]

Hightower....I don't!!! 😀

 

[MagSeal]

Frenchwrench

There is a specific way to adjust the belts, by length of stretch between two lines. Not with the 'twang' method.

 

[CTD]

Skullcap - I too have had problems with getting kicked off after typing a particularly long post (some tell me I tend to 'go on' a little :hide: ). Try typing it in Word, then pasting into a reply. I find that works very well.

Amadao said

I think Transport Canada's reaction to the hydraulic issue on the A-Star is unfortunate and I think they should have had a definite cause pin-pointed before issueing such a vague AD. If Transport Canada is setting a precedent and reacting to all accidents/incidents this way it will negatively affect our industry as a whole. I believe thorough investigation of all incidents/accidents is the answer and jumping to unfounded conclusions is not.

I could not disagree more. TC didn't know what was wrong when they grounded the 407 for FADEC issue, or limited its speed for the tail rotor incidents, nor should they have. The thing is, there are unexplained accidents that kill people.

If this CHL guy had suffered a hydraulic belt failure, three of them would be dead. Period. Exeactly how would you react if you were the responsible authority? That particular a/c was taken out of service by the owner long before any AD was issued in response - that's responsibility.

It doesn't matter if this problem is the belt, the servos, the rigging, or the turn signals, the fact is that we've had four unexplained incidents, four corpses, and three very lucky people. Until somebody figures out what it is, and how to fix it, there is a duty to protect.

The discussions on what to do about these incidents have been exhaustive and thorough, involving TC, TSB, EC France and the operators involved.

Skullcap said:

Spend some money get a qualified test pilot and go to different aircraft around Canada and try flying them without hydraulics, maybe there is a problem with non-training a/c, doubt it but hey do something.

Being done as we speak. We're also getting a visit from France in the near future.

 

[skullcap]

CTD:

Out test flying as we speak? That's the best damn news I've heard in months, I was hoping it would go that way!

I am not that close to any of these incidents, the last was a TC official faxed it to some operators who passed it on to me. But I will say again that there is an extreme lack of information flow from tc to general aviation. This is the supreme example.

People's lives and livlihoods hang on some forward thinking folks now.

Pass on as much info as you know, whats the worst that could happen? We agree with you? The only way we can help you to help us is to let in on whats going on.

Vortex is excellent by the way.

 

[amodao]

CTD,
Since there are accidents and incidents all of the time should we expect to get and AD for every one? The question I would like to know is how TC determines when to issue and AD. I have sent in SDR's for various problems but they haven't led to any. To ground every aircraft everytime there is a problem is not a realistic option.

 

[CTD]

CTD,
Since there are accidents and incidents all of the time should we expect to get and AD for every one?

The ones that result in the aircraft becoming uncontrolable, yes. The 407 tail rotor episodes, the Hughes 500 tail gearboxes and m/r grips, the 76 main rotor blades, the 350 spherical bearings, etc., etc., etc.

The question I would like to know is how TC determines when to issue and AD.

I suppose just like every other organization - when there is a high likelihood of reoccurrence and the consequences are severe.

I have sent in SDR's for various problems but they haven't led to any.

Of course, I have no knowledge of your SDRs, nor do I have any dealings with them in general. I would only hope that if they were problems that could result in serious consequences, then they would have been addressed.

To ground every aircraft everytime there is a problem is not a realistic option

Who's grounding anything? When was the last time you saw an aircraft grounded, and what was it for?

This AD isn't even issued yet, and nobody here, including me, knows if it ever will be, so let's stick to the facts, shall we?

skullcap, the problem is, nobody knows much of anything right now. Hopefully the testing will get some results and we can get this thing sorted out in a hurry. Thanks for the comments on Vortex.

 

[skullcap]

407;

The latest B3 accident was at dark I believe and pilot lost control in hover, began spin, was his t/r accumulator charged? Most Astar pilots do not know how to check this andwould surprise me if it was so here. Without that accumulator it would awfully hard to maintain heading with the power of a B3. Have had BA lightly loaded that was not able to complete a hovering pedal turn in a 10 15 kt wind due to not enough t/r contro was available.

Another B3 in Cal that was bent due to the collective not be locked while pilot turned off hyd during check. AD cam out to check collective locking mechanisms were not worn out.

Another lost when pilot flew 25 minutes to home airport and lost control in hover.(past a perfectly good airport enroute). The old addage of max 15 minutes came to mind from 206 days. Not sure what the certification process is for cyclic forces vs time vs physical stature(she was of small build), am sure she did he best and almost made it.

All these have one thing in common, there is a probable cause which is not the case up in Canada.

The latest incident with the BA in the cold is just that, an incident. UNLESS there can be proven that there was an anamaly that was not normal(ie loose belt, ice/water/fod causing loss in pressure) also why did the a/c seem to want to deviate left? Where was the wind, was there a crosseind from the left causing much right pedal to be used which in turn requires extra cyclic force to right? When did the pilot do his last hyd off training!!!!!
Find out answers to those and if all was ok and still nothing conclusive, then push some panic buttons quick before I do.

cio

 

[amodao]

I regard to the A-STAR hyd. AD. I have seen a copy of the proposed AD and it has limitations restricting the A-STAR to two pilots at the controls and -15 C. It list every part of the hyd. system as cause of potential failure (Section 3). I guess then, that every part of every system could possible fail and that we should restrict all flying due to that potential for failure. TC is out of control, maybe we should put a AD against them.(They seem to have a flight controlling problem themselves?)

 

[frenchwrench]

re the 206 hyd failure.
I was told that as soon as practical means if a field is before the airport you should have landed there..I am sure a lawyer would find fodder with landing only at an airport.
A bit off topic,But I saw a kid declare an emergency with a hyd failure,(206)and the whole town showed up to see the approach to the 1 foot snow covered grass,instead of the taxi way 20 foot away..we had a time towing it over to the hanger.Pump bushings failed,
There is always a dozen sides to every incident.........

 

[MagSeal]

I had seen on the TC website the criteria for issuing an AD. You need to navigate around a bit to find it, but it's there, and goes step by step.

 

[MagSeal]

CTD

"If this CHL guy had suffered a hydraulic belt failure, three of them would be dead"

I think your statement is a bit extreme. In my CHL days, I know of three hydraulic failures, one belt, two pump splines and lo and behold, none of those guys are dead. As a matter of fact you could probably still talk to them this day as they are all still flying.
I hope your not in a position of authority with this obvious bias.