Assigned Seating May Be Coming

[ngneer]

This article from the Las Vegas Sun reports that SWA is considering assigned seating. SWA says that technology costs with assigned seating are no longer a problem.

 

[Fly]

STOP!!! Don't do it!!! Seems that the more you give them, the more they hate you for it. Right now everybody hopes for a good seat but expects a bad one. If you assign seats, they'll expect a good seat and be pissed if they don't get one. Think about it!!!! Run, Save Yourself :eye:

 

[Busdrvr]

Not to mention substantually increasing ground time between flights.

 

[KCFlyer]

Not to mention substantually increasing ground time between flights.

That more than anything will keep them from adopting assigned seats. Assigning a seat means that some joker will take that to mean that he can show up at the gate at 10:29 to board a 10:30 flight. I noticed that some of the other airlines have tightened up on those folks by pretty much closing the door 10 minutes prior to departure (Delta did it on both legs of a recent flight). SWA can't do that because it would cut the time they have to unload, clean and reboard the plane down to 15 minutes, since their planes are at the gate for only about 25 minutes.

 

[JS]

It's about time ... what took so long

Having assigned seats does not encourage people to show up at the last minute. Besides the "10 minute rule", if you show up at the last minute, there will be no room for your carry-on in the overhead bins.

Look over at the Delta or AA or anyone's flights, and on full flights you will see people crowding the gate area. Sometimes the gate agent makes an announcement asking people to please move back so others ("group 1" or whatever system is in use at that airline and airport) can get on the plane.

The amount of time it takes to board a plane has almost nothing to do with whether you have assigned seating. The problem is the massive carry-ons that some people bring. I really wish the gate agents would enforce the carry-on rules. If a rolling suitcase is so large that you need two people to lift it into the overhead bin and then push and squeeze and push and squeeze and turn it diagonally to get it in, it's TOO BIG! Check the darn thing instead of wasting a good five minutes during boarding (blocking everyone behind you).

Watch how long it takes to re-board a plane (i.e., everyone boards, mechanical delay, everyone gets off to wait the two hours to fix it but leaves carry-ons on the plane). It takes no time at all to board without a rolling suitcase for every passenger.

There are a few things that Southwest does differently today that make it look like the "legacy carriers", such as flying to the Northeast, longer turn times, multiple fares rather than just peak/off-peak, and advance reservation and minimum stay requirements.

AirTran, America West, JetBlue, ATA, they all have seat assignments. It's not going to kill the golden goose; in fact, seat assignment might just make more golden eggs.

 

[KCFlyer]

JS - here's an example, using my recent Delta flights. I got to the gate one hour prior to the flight. The plane was already at the gate. They began boarding 30 minutes prior to departure. Since there was no first class seats (this was a former Shuttle aircraft), they invited "medallion" passengers to board. About 50 people headed to the agent. Turns out, only about 5 of them were really medallion passengers...so only about 45 folks got out of line. Then they called rows 20-26. Again, a mass of folks headed to the agent. Then they called rows 15-26. I was in row 15, so I go to board. When I get into the plane, I'm sort of standing still waiting to get back to my seat. Couldn't help but notice about 20 folks sitting in rows 1-14....how'd they get there? And why was I waiting for a guy to put a carryon in the overhead bin for row 11 (then sit in that row) when that row wasn't even called yet? Note that I mentioned that boarding began 30 minutes prior to departure time. If this were Southwest, the plane would most likely be taxiing towards the gate now. Bottom line, they allot more time to board the plane than Southwest does to park, unload, load and go. Why would they do that if assigned seating was so much more effiecient?

 

[PD]

Assign seats and your'll get more of us, the business traveler. We don't have the 4 hours to stand around like grandma and grandpa. If your worried about the boarding process do it like Metro Jet used to do, board 2 rows at a time.

 

[KCFlyer]

Assign seats and your'll get more of us, the business traveler. We don't have the 4 hours to stand around like grandma and grandpa. If your worried about the boarding process do it like Metro Jet used to do, board 2 rows at a time.

Southwest flew 72,541,238 passengers last year. That's a lot of gradma's and grandpa's flying. And I didn't realize that Dallas - Houston, or LA - Oakland were popular tourist destinations.

And if I recall correctly, Metrojet is no longer in business....why adopt a business practice from a defunct carrier?

 

[JS]

JS - here's an example, using my recent Delta flights. I got to the gate one hour prior to the flight. The plane was already at the gate. They began boarding 30 minutes prior to departure. Since there was no first class seats (this was a former Shuttle aircraft), they invited "medallion" passengers to board. About 50 people headed to the agent. Turns out, only about 5 of them were really medallion passengers...so only about 45 folks got out of line. Then they called rows 20-26. Again, a mass of folks headed to the agent. Then they called rows 15-26. I was in row 15, so I go to board. When I get into the plane, I'm sort of standing still waiting to get back to my seat. Couldn't help but notice about 20 folks sitting in rows 1-14....how'd they get there? And why was I waiting for a guy to put a carryon in the overhead bin for row 11 (then sit in that row) when that row wasn't even called yet? Note that I mentioned that boarding began 30 minutes prior to departure time. If this were Southwest, the plane would most likely be taxiing towards the gate now. Bottom line, they allot more time to board the plane than Southwest does to park, unload, load and go. Why would they do that if assigned seating was so much more effiecient?

The people in the front of the plane were either Medallions, or the gate agent wasn't enforcing the row numbers. The group number method is supposed to eliminate this problem (only a few Delta stations are doing this now; if it works, then it will be done systemwide).

If you eliminate pre-boarding for Medallions (and First Class if there is one), you can decrease the boarding time. However, this is a perk that Medallions really like (so they can take up the whole overhead bin with their 50 pound suitcase), and is probably not something Delta is going to remove anytime soon. Delta allots about an hour at each stop for scheduling reasons, so there's no need to squeeze the boarding down to 15 minutes if they have time to burn anyway.

Southwest, on the other hand, does not have pre-boarding for frequent flyers, nor a First Class cabin that requires coat checks and pre-departure drinks, so this would not be an issue.

One time I took a NW flight DTW-MKE-MEM. The flight number was different, but it was the same DC-9 on both legs. Granted, a DC-9 isn't a big as a 737, but the difference isn't that huge. The scheduled turn time was only 30 minutes in MKE. This is a mainline plane with First Class and NW elite pre-boarding, the flight was not empty (full or close to it). We still managed to unload and then load the next set of passengers in 30 minutes.

Most airlines allot an hour at each stop for reasons besides seat assignments -- either hub banking or avoiding snowballing delays.

 

[Busdrvr]

Somehow todays "business passenger" expects to pay the same as Grams, but still thinks you should worship the ground he walks on.... You want a assigned seats and a meal, then tell your travel dept to pay the diff betwen the two products

 

[Ch. 12]

WN doesn't need as many of the suits as other airlines do and can generate good revenues from the grandparents.

Another issue with assigned seating similar to KC's examples are those passengers seated near the back of the plane that walk all the way back, find no overhead space for their bulging "carry-on" and force their way back to the front of the plane to stow their bag in the less congested bins up front. In the process, they force 20-30 passengers to detour into rows where they don't have seats and slow down the entire boarding process. With WN...you find bin space, you find seat underneath. If not, a attendant takes your bag away from you. It's that simple because people will also b-line to the first seat they find that they like. This means no repeat trips down the aisles causing other passengers to battle to get to their assigned seats.

:down: to assigned seats. That will only lengthen the turns. And as far as I can see...the only "longer turns" that WN currently has are the refuels for the transcons. Everything else is still 25min (usually less when the inbound was late).

 

[JS]

Somehow todays "business passenger" expects to pay the same as Grams, but still thinks you should worship the ground he walks on.... You want a assigned seats and a meal, then tell your travel dept to pay the diff betwen the two products

The same fare? No. That's unreasonable. What business travelers were protesting was paying 10 TIMES as much as Grandma.

Paying somewhat more, sure. But not usurious rates that your airline and the like used to get away with.

Had UAL not been charging absurd fares for tickets to DEN with no Saturday night stay, would Frontier (seat assignments and all) still be here today?

 

[JS]

WN doesn't need as many of the suits as other airlines do and can generate good revenues from the grandparents.

Another issue with assigned seating similar to KC's examples are those passengers seated near the back of the plane that walk all the way back, find no overhead space for their bulging "carry-on" and force their way back to the front of the plane to stow their bag in the less congested bins up front. In the process, they force 20-30 passengers to detour into rows where they don't have seats and slow down the entire boarding process. With WN...you find bin space, you find seat underneath. If not, a attendant takes your bag away from you. It's that simple because people will also b-line to the first seat they find that they like. This means no repeat trips down the aisles causing other passengers to battle to get to their assigned seats.

:down: to assigned seats. That will only lengthen the turns. And as far as I can see...the only "longer turns" that WN currently has are the refuels for the transcons. Everything else is still 25min (usually less when the inbound was late).

How is that any different from Southwest? There's plenty of bin space if you board when your row is called. If you board late, and there's no space left, then you have to check it.

Unless Southwest has unusually large overhead bins, it's the same problem. Board late, and you may have to check your 50 pound, 1/2 cubic yard suitcase (as it should have been in the first place).

Secondly, how can you say with a straight face that Southwest doesn't need more passengers who pay higher fares? Their relatively low load factor allows for more passengers without the need to dump the Grandma's.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Somehow todays "business passenger" expects to pay the same as Grams, but still thinks you should worship the ground he walks on.... You want a assigned seats and a meal, then tell your travel dept to pay the diff betwen the two products

C'mon -- the business passenger travels 10x the amount Grams does!

And the infamous "travel dept" (which could very well be your spouse, remember not all businesses are large) has to account to somebody too.

You either present a simplistic, silly response or a befuddling numbers answer.

I'm certain you're a competent pilot. But lower prices are here to stay.

As it should be. And should've been. UA price-gouged for years and pissed away billions. Now 'SmallBusinessInc' should pay extra for your commodity product?

Are you a Jake Brace disciple?

 

[KCFlyer]

How is that any different from Southwest? There's plenty of bin space if you board when your row is called. If you board late, and there's no space left, then you have to check it.

Unless Southwest has unusually large overhead bins, it's the same problem. Board late, and you may have to check your 50 pound, 1/2 cubic yard suitcase (as it should have been in the first place).

Secondly, how can you say with a straight face that Southwest doesn't need more passengers who pay higher fares? Their relatively low load factor allows for more passengers without the need to dump the Grandma's.

As for the Medallions - the gate agent WAS enforcing the preboarding for medallions...she made that announcement at the gate. I was watching them board the plane...not more than 5 preboarded. Yet a whole bunch boarded "out of sequence".

Okay...you just missed Ch12's entire point. First, with "assigned seating", a lot of people in row 20 will toss their bag in the bin for row 12 so they can "grab it" on the way off the plane. When row 12 is called, there isn't any space in the bin, so those folks have to wander around the plane to find an open bin space, then get back to their seat. There is no advantage for someone doing this on Southwest - you put your bag in the bin over your seat, then sit down. Someone in boarding group C is most likely to find space in the overhead pretty near the seat they sit down in. But even if some idiot does this on SWA, someone right behind him may just grab the seat in row 12 - because they weren't putting anything in the overhead bin - and when a "latecomer" gets on board, the only available seats are in the back of the plane anyhow.

Secondly...it's easier to say that Southwest doesn't need more passengers who pay higher fares because Southwest is making a profit on the passengers they are carrying. Their relatively low load factors are somewhat misleading...it's easy to do when you have upwards of 20 daily departures in some city pairs. Some of those flights will be chock full. Some will be half full. The result is a system wide load factor of 75%. It's called "frequency". They are able to make half full flights work because there are already several completely full flights on many routes that day.