What's new

August 2013 Pilot Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry, I'll type slower for you next time. How's that majority thing working for you?

Usually one can speculate about the majority's margin of success by observing the level of protest put forward by the minority, but one must keep in mind that both can be overstated somewhat. 🙂
 
Found this under cactusboy53 search.

ogax1.jpg
 
Awesome. By your post I presume you will have NO trouble puting the Kirby Proposal w/ an 11% wage increase (over what the West already make) & using the only seniority list sitting on Parker's desk (the Nic). If the merger goes toast, that is EXACTLY what we should do.
Yeah, right.....when Hell freezes over. You know the Kirby proposal is a pile of crap.....the only reason you guys push it is because the NIC is tied to it. Integrity my butt. I am doing just fine with the A330 pay and PBGC.....I can wait a loonnnggg time. You guys don't seem to get that end of it.
 
Usually one can speculate about the majority's margin of success by observing the level of protest put forward by the minority, but one must keep in mind that both can be overstated somewhat. 🙂

Margin of success? How does time factor into our margin of "success"? Ten years being the majority on LoA 93 really shows just how successful we've been.
 
Yeah, right.....when Hell freezes over. You know the Kirby proposal is a pile of crap.....the only reason you guys push it is because the NIC is tied to it. Integrity my butt. I am doing just fine with the A330 pay and PBGC.....I can wait a loonnnggg time. You guys don't seem to get that end of it.

LoA 93 is so much better than the Kirby proposal.
 
All we do is whine and cry. Pathetic. And then we make up leverage like pretending to be able to withdraw from the MoU.



[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]JOINT PHL/CLT DOMICILE UPDATE[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Merger Support[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]We have received many emails and calls, both pro and con, regarding USAPA providing a public statement to the DOJ supporting the US Airways - American Airlines merger. Let us be clear: we understand that the majority of US Airways pilots support the merger and its associated benefits. And make no mistake; the USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives shares this position. Nevertheless we would not be doing our best for our pilots if we did not consider whether there are additional steps that should be taken at this point to protect the interests of our pilots, in the event that the merger does not go forward.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]To clarify, the issue is not whether USAPA supports the benefits of a future merger for all of our pilots. The issue is giving unconditional support regardless of any adverse effects that could occur, if we do not act prudently to protect the pilots of US Airways. There are those who want to support this merger and the Company’s goals unconditionally, and those who believe that our support must come with a raised eyebrow, as well as an insurance policy that not only protects, but insures the pilots’ future interests.[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Throughout this process we have been reminded of the numerous instances where the Company has thumbed its nose at the US Airways pilot group. Most noticeable, covertly negotiating the Term Sheet with APA and purposely excluding USAPA from the process, resulting in yet again a bankruptcy and sub-industry standard contract for US Airways pilots.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]No other pilot group in history has sacrificed as we have. We have contributed well over $10 Billion in concessions as we are forced to endure LAO 93, 3 years beyond the amendable date. The final result is that the APA received 13.5% equity stake in the combined company (approximately hundred thousand per pilot), while the US Airways pilots received an ‘IOU,’ not to mention less than the $10,000 originally advertised. In addition, the American pilots are being paid at Green Book rates which were effective at their signing, and received other benefits immediately, while again the US Airways pilots receive an ‘IOU’ for MOU rates only when the POR is complete.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Furthermore, US Airways pilots will not even begin to accrue MOU vacation until after the POR, should there actually be a completed merger. Given the delay potentially caused by the antitrust suit, the merger may not close until 2014, and this could mean that east pilots may not receive the same vacation as both the west and APA until 2016.[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Next we have the 3% issue, a simple contractual stipulation that we have had to fight about for over four years. As per the language outlined in the LOA 84 Restructuring Agreement, beginning in 2010, we are clearly entitled to a 3% raise every May 01, during the status quo period. This equated to 3% on May 01, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013, or a 12.55% raise above current levels. The negotiating evidence clearly shows that the Company knows this, they tried to negotiate their way out of this provision, they forced us to "grieve" this provision, as they attempt to disavow this provision ever existed. The total disrespect this management demonstrates to our pilots and our profession is incredible. While they certainly benefit financially every day, every month, every year from our sacrifices, as well as the merger with America West, our earning power decreases daily against the ever-rising cost of living and inflation. The 3% minimal annual raises that were negotiated in LOA 84 and not removed from our contract in LOA 93 are now being held hostage in the hands of arbitration, as our management continues to prevent contractual increases 10 years beyond our own bankruptcy contract. It should come as no surprise that many of our pilots strongly resent “helping” management with their next merger, while they continue to ignore our needs, as well as abuse our contracts.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]In light of these issues, which are only a partial list of the bad behavior exhibited by this management over the last 8 years, how can we make an unconditional public show of support to the DOJ in regards to this merger? What guarantees do we have our pilots will be protected if further sacrifices are required to attain this merger? Whatever your thoughts are at this point, we have an MOU that, regardless of the manner in which it was delivered to the pilots, was approved by 76% of US Airways pilots (56% of PHL pilots, 72% of CLT pilots, 85% of DCA pilots, and 98% of PHX pilots). We have all demonstrated our support and expect the benefits for this merger through our vote. But the MOU does not include any provisions that protect our careers if the merger is not ultimately approved. Let’s be blunt: what we have done for the past 16 months is to put our careers at US Airways on hold once again, while we assisted our management to secure their positions as leaders of the largest airline on Earth. If this deal is not consummated, there are no benefits for our continued sacrifices and we will have nothing to show for it.[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]If this merger fails, we are essentially back at square one with Section 6 negotiations before the NMB, and a management who thrives on delay tactics and stalling the negotiating process. The Company will have effectively delayed the Section 6 negotiations for an additional two years, for a total of more than six years, and we will continue to receive substandard wages and benefits. This process will continue for as long as the NMB allows US Airways management to stonewall the Railway Labor Act process in stand-alone, mediated negotiations. No one in USAPA is in any way attempting to derail this merger. Rather, what we require is insurance and protections in the event that this merger fails.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]A fair question at this point would be: [/background]Why didn’t USAPA negotiate something up front, before we jumped on board with negotiations for the MOU? [background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]The answer is this: Although an effort was made to spring to the Kirby Proposal pay rates if the merger didn’t go through, that very reasonable request was denied by management. We had union leadership that has been all-in since their first briefing by Parker and Kirby in April of 2012, and the officers lead us to the MOU with the hopes that a merger would in fact be the quickest way to a better contract. We certainly hope everyone sees the massive failure here with 20-20 hindsight, and now vow to correct the lack of contingent protections.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Management appears to expect our automatic and continued support. The PHL and CLT Domicile representatives are reluctant to continue our unconditional support for Doug Parker’s merger without some assurances, insurance, protections and mutual respect for all those who made this merger possible, including the US Airways pilots who have faithfully and continually delivered time and again to protect the strong East Coast presence and network which makes this merger so desirable.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]No US Airways pilot needs to be reminded that we have suffered under bankruptcy wages and work rules and without a raise for almost ten years. In fact, the recent delay can be directly attributed to US Airways Management (with the assistance of the NMB), who focused their attention on negotiating with the APA on our behalf and what was to be a pending merger.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Since April 18, 2012, USAPA has spent most of its time and effort supporting the proposed merger. While there was always the possibility the DOJ would take issue with some aspects of the merger, we didn’t think anyone ever believed they would attempt to prevent the merger outright.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]While we hope the merger will occur, there is always the possibility that it will not. And if it doesn’t occur, US Airways pilots will essentially be back to square one with respect to negotiating a new collective bargaining agreement. When negotiations ceased two years ago, the Company hadn’t moved off of their original, sub-standard proposal in any meaningful way.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]In light of the record profits they are reporting, we should be far north of anything they offered in 2007. We believe if the merger does not occur, it is not unreasonable to require the Company to commit to the same aggressive negotiating schedule it displayed with APA, where an entire agreement was crafted in just a few weeks. Unfortunately, we were told last week by USAPA President Hummel that US Airways’ President Scott Kirby has no intention in negotiating quickly with us, and once again plans to use the seniority issue as the excuse. So here we sit, having supported the merger, our livelihoods diminished, our retirements mostly gone, much of our flying outsourced….and yet, rest assured, our top management is doing quite well, merger or no merger.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]All this said, if you still feel the need to provide unsolicited support and enable our management to continue with “business as usual” when it comes to how they treat their front line employees, then please provide us your reasoning and we will include it with all the other input we have been receiving. From our vantage point, and from what many pilots are telling us, we are at the point of ambivalence. This merger will be a quick remedy for many of our current issues, but when you consider that the entire ordeal before the DOJ and the courts, simply put, it is out of our hands. We are not piloting this merger; we are in the last row of the jet. If all else fails we must be prepared to stand up for ourselves should the DOJ prevail in keeping American and US Airways separate.[/background]



[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] Bill McKee Steve Crimi Dewitt Ingram CLT Chairman Vice Chairman Vice Chairman Paul DiOrio Paul Music John Taylor PHL Chariman Vice Chairman Vice Chairman​ [/background]



[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] [/background]
 
Awesome. By your post I presume you will have NO trouble puting the Kirby Proposal w/ an 11% wage increase (over what the West already make) & using the only seniority list sitting on Parker's desk (the Nic). If the merger goes toast, that is EXACTLY what we should do.

Since the merger is dead, that 11% increase over the West is looking mighty fine to me, as long as we make sure and protect section I. Such a proposal will probably make it past the BPR for a vote by the members, it might be the best we can do in a few years. But don't fool yourself. USAPA has no intention of using the NIC, and is still not required by law to do so. In a couple of years, when the legal haze clears, maybe things in the industry will have improved and we can get a 12% increase. But no contract for years. Note that Parker has already shown his love for PHX by moving his family out of the area. Once the "inspectors" are out of the country, that is usually a signal bombs will fly. I see bad times ahead for PIT and PHX. Too bad they jumped on the bandwagon with the DOJ. RR
 
Margin of success? How does time factor into our margin of "success"? Ten years being the majority on LoA 93 really shows just how successful we've been.

Ten years of you whining says it all. :lol:
 
All we do is whine and cry. Pathetic. And then we make up leverage like pretending to be able to withdraw from the MoU.



[background=rgb(245,245,245)]JOINT PHL/CLT DOMICILE UPDATE[/background]

[background=rgb(245,245,245)]Merger Support[/background]


West pilots read the update and have a few observations:

:lol:

"Whah whah whah"​

"Yada, yada, yada"​
.​
"Well, too late you a$$holes.
You guys voted the MOU in, and whether or not you "raise your eyebrow" is completely inconsequential. usucka is as useful as tits on a cockroach......
Loudmouth rhetoric for the masses.
What will will they do, UNVOTE for the MOU??
z7shysterical.gif
"​

"Maybe these guys wouldn't be writing these pathetic updates if they had a real union that represented the entire pilot group. How can they believe they are capable of achieving anything when management is well aware of the lack of unity? These guys are effectively neutered and it appears they are clueless based on these kind of updates. I would imagine that they believe that they carry some kind of leverage going into this merger. I would guess management couldn't give a damn what USAPA wants at this point."​

"That they continue to sit for nearly a decade with nothing to show for it, the blame for 99% of their complaints can rest 100% upon their shoulders."

"So, on Labor Day I'd just like to take a moment and say "thanks Onion For noth'in."
 
All we do is whine and cry. Pathetic. And then we make up leverage like pretending to be able to withdraw from the MoU.



[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]JOINT PHL/CLT DOMICILE UPDATE[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Merger Support[/background]

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]We have received many emails and calls, both pro and con, regarding USAPA providing a public statement to the DOJ supporting the US Airways - American Airlines merger. Let us be clear: we understand that the majority of US Airways pilots support the merger and its associated benefits. And make no mistake; the USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives shares this position. Nevertheless we would not be doing our best for our pilots if we did not consider whether there are additional steps that should be taken at this point to protect the interests of our pilots, in the event that the merger does not go forward.[/background]



Could not agree more. Well said and done

[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]To clarify, the issue is not whether USAPA supports the benefits of a future merger for all of our pilots. The issue is giving unconditional support regardless of any adverse effects that could occur, if we do not act prudently to protect the pilots of US Airways. There are those who want to support this merger and the Company’s goals unconditionally, and those who believe that our support must come with a raised eyebrow, as well as an insurance policy that not only protects, but insures the pilots’ future interests.[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Throughout this process we have been reminded of the numerous instances where the Company has thumbed its nose at the US Airways pilot group. Most noticeable, covertly negotiating the Term Sheet with APA and purposely excluding USAPA from the process, resulting in yet again a bankruptcy and sub-industry standard contract for US Airways pilots.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]No other pilot group in history has sacrificed as we have. We have contributed well over $10 Billion in concessions as we are forced to endure LAO 93, 3 years beyond the amendable date. The final result is that the APA received 13.5% equity stake in the combined company (approximately hundred thousand per pilot), while the US Airways pilots received an ‘IOU,’ not to mention less than the $10,000 originally advertised. In addition, the American pilots are being paid at Green Book rates which were effective at their signing, and received other benefits immediately, while again the US Airways pilots receive an ‘IOU’ for MOU rates only when the POR is complete.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Furthermore, US Airways pilots will not even begin to accrue MOU vacation until after the POR, should there actually be a completed merger. Given the delay potentially caused by the antitrust suit, the merger may not close until 2014, and this could mean that east pilots may not receive the same vacation as both the west and APA until 2016.[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Next we have the 3% issue, a simple contractual stipulation that we have had to fight about for over four years. As per the language outlined in the LOA 84 Restructuring Agreement, beginning in 2010, we are clearly entitled to a 3% raise every May 01, during the status quo period. This equated to 3% on May 01, 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013, or a 12.55% raise above current levels. The negotiating evidence clearly shows that the Company knows this, they tried to negotiate their way out of this provision, they forced us to "grieve" this provision, as they attempt to disavow this provision ever existed. The total disrespect this management demonstrates to our pilots and our profession is incredible. While they certainly benefit financially every day, every month, every year from our sacrifices, as well as the merger with America West, our earning power decreases daily against the ever-rising cost of living and inflation. The 3% minimal annual raises that were negotiated in LOA 84 and not removed from our contract in LOA 93 are now being held hostage in the hands of arbitration, as our management continues to prevent contractual increases 10 years beyond our own bankruptcy contract. It should come as no surprise that many of our pilots strongly resent “helping” management with their next merger, while they continue to ignore our needs, as well as abuse our contracts.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]In light of these issues, which are only a partial list of the bad behavior exhibited by this management over the last 8 years, how can we make an unconditional public show of support to the DOJ in regards to this merger? What guarantees do we have our pilots will be protected if further sacrifices are required to attain this merger? Whatever your thoughts are at this point, we have an MOU that, regardless of the manner in which it was delivered to the pilots, was approved by 76% of US Airways pilots (56% of PHL pilots, 72% of CLT pilots, 85% of DCA pilots, and 98% of PHX pilots). We have all demonstrated our support and expect the benefits for this merger through our vote. But the MOU does not include any provisions that protect our careers if the merger is not ultimately approved. Let’s be blunt: what we have done for the past 16 months is to put our careers at US Airways on hold once again, while we assisted our management to secure their positions as leaders of the largest airline on Earth. If this deal is not consummated, there are no benefits for our continued sacrifices and we will have nothing to show for it.[/background]
[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]If this merger fails, we are essentially back at square one with Section 6 negotiations before the NMB, and a management who thrives on delay tactics and stalling the negotiating process. The Company will have effectively delayed the Section 6 negotiations for an additional two years, for a total of more than six years, and we will continue to receive substandard wages and benefits. This process will continue for as long as the NMB allows US Airways management to stonewall the Railway Labor Act process in stand-alone, mediated negotiations. No one in USAPA is in any way attempting to derail this merger. Rather, what we require is insurance and protections in the event that this merger fails.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]A fair question at this point would be: [/background]Why didn’t USAPA negotiate something up front, before we jumped on board with negotiations for the MOU? [background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]The answer is this: Although an effort was made to spring to the Kirby Proposal pay rates if the merger didn’t go through, that very reasonable request was denied by management. We had union leadership that has been all-in since their first briefing by Parker and Kirby in April of 2012, and the officers lead us to the MOU with the hopes that a merger would in fact be the quickest way to a better contract. We certainly hope everyone sees the massive failure here with 20-20 hindsight, and now vow to correct the lack of contingent protections.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Management appears to expect our automatic and continued support. The PHL and CLT Domicile representatives are reluctant to continue our unconditional support for Doug Parker’s merger without some assurances, insurance, protections and mutual respect for all those who made this merger possible, including the US Airways pilots who have faithfully and continually delivered time and again to protect the strong East Coast presence and network which makes this merger so desirable.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]No US Airways pilot needs to be reminded that we have suffered under bankruptcy wages and work rules and without a raise for almost ten years. In fact, the recent delay can be directly attributed to US Airways Management (with the assistance of the NMB), who focused their attention on negotiating with the APA on our behalf and what was to be a pending merger.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]Since April 18, 2012, USAPA has spent most of its time and effort supporting the proposed merger. While there was always the possibility the DOJ would take issue with some aspects of the merger, we didn’t think anyone ever believed they would attempt to prevent the merger outright.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]While we hope the merger will occur, there is always the possibility that it will not. And if it doesn’t occur, US Airways pilots will essentially be back to square one with respect to negotiating a new collective bargaining agreement. When negotiations ceased two years ago, the Company hadn’t moved off of their original, sub-standard proposal in any meaningful way.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]In light of the record profits they are reporting, we should be far north of anything they offered in 2007. We believe if the merger does not occur, it is not unreasonable to require the Company to commit to the same aggressive negotiating schedule it displayed with APA, where an entire agreement was crafted in just a few weeks. Unfortunately, we were told last week by USAPA President Hummel that US Airways’ President Scott Kirby has no intention in negotiating quickly with us, and once again plans to use the seniority issue as the excuse. So here we sit, having supported the merger, our livelihoods diminished, our retirements mostly gone, much of our flying outsourced….and yet, rest assured, our top management is doing quite well, merger or no merger.[/background]


[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)]All this said, if you still feel the need to provide unsolicited support and enable our management to continue with “business as usual” when it comes to how they treat their front line employees, then please provide us your reasoning and we will include it with all the other input we have been receiving. From our vantage point, and from what many pilots are telling us, we are at the point of ambivalence. This merger will be a quick remedy for many of our current issues, but when you consider that the entire ordeal before the DOJ and the courts, simply put, it is out of our hands. We are not piloting this merger; we are in the last row of the jet. If all else fails we must be prepared to stand up for ourselves should the DOJ prevail in keeping American and US Airways separate.[/background]



[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] Bill McKee Steve Crimi Dewitt Ingram CLT Chairman Vice Chairman Vice Chairman Paul DiOrio Paul Music John Taylor PHL Chariman Vice Chairman Vice Chairman⤋ [/background]



[background=rgb(245, 245, 245)] [/background]
 
Yeah, right.....when Hell freezes over. You know the Kirby proposal is a pile of crap.....the only reason you guys push it is because the NIC is tied to it. Integrity my butt. I am doing just fine with the A330 pay and PBGC.....I can wait a loonnnggg time. You guys don't seem to get that end of it.

I beg to differ. The KP is basically the contract that I now work under. It's pretty darned good (most assuredly better than LOA93). The wage offered was 3% above what the AWA pilots make, with a potential of 10-11% above. That PLUS 10 days of vacation MORE a year than you now get.

The NIC stands alone as the only legally binding list that sits on Parker's desk. The train is on its way to DFW, and we are nearly there, so you don't have long to wait Breeze. The Judge(s) all know what USAPA is about and what their goal has always been. Guess what? I think the arbitrators know too.

You have won delay at the loss of hundreds of millions, 210,000 days of vacation days for you guys, and over 14 million spent in litigation. You won't have that long to wait (IMO).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top