August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

You do realize that the company will not accept a list which violates the TA/CBA they are legally required to abide by, right? You do realize that the NMB parked negotiations pending the outcome in federal court, right? You also realize USAPA could end the whole dispute by accepting the NIC, right?

"You do realize that the company will not accept a list which violates the TA/CBA they are legally required to abide by, right?"

Please refer to Judge Silver's order below.

Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

DATED this 4th day of December, 2012.

"You do realize that the NMB parked negotiations pending the outcome in federal court, right?

Please read Judge Silver's order above.

"You also realize USAPA could end the whole dispute by accepting the NIC, right"

You wish scab. You west pilots stood up in parkers pilot meetings accusing east pilots of slowing down many times scab. Happy Holidays.

 

[Reed Richards]

Oh for gods sake! Emplement a joint senoirity list based on DOH..drop the fence on equipment..AB330/B767 & E190.

And yes..risk a DFR. So what? You guys can tie it up in court for years but by doing this it will shake loose some movement.

Fly, your view is shared by a large majority of East pilots. Problem is there are two parties to contract, USAPA and US Airways. It is US Airways that has to agree with us, otherwise we only have a work action to respond. Strike that. The NMB will not let us take a work action with pending litigation, and a legitimate safety campaign was turned into an illegal work action by the CLT reps and Cleary a few years back. We are injuncted and are screwed, no current recourse. Pending current litigation, our hands are tied for at least two years. One thing the West Class says is correct, the only way to a contract earlier than that is for the East to push the Nic across the table as our list. Good luck on ever even getting that contract out for a vote. It would never leave the BPR. Would the East vote in such a list? Eventually, probably after I am gone. 3/4 at least of our list would suffer more than reasonable harm under the NIC. The new hires probably (and who knows) would favor NOT having another 1500 pilots come in on top of them. Better later than never for that. Tell your family to hunker down as they have for years. With the merger now dead that is our only recourse, else Lex Luthor causing PHX to fall into the Pacific. RR

 

[Claxon]

america west pilots, thank fergie for your dormant career.

PROPOSED CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS

The following conditions and restrictions shall limit the application of the adjusted dateof-
hire seniority list for all bids effective on or before June 1, 2014:

1. The first 176 positions as captain on the A330, B767/757-I, or replacement
aircraft, and the first 283 first officer positions on the A330, B767/757-I, or
replacement aircraft, shall be reserved to the pre-merger US Airways pilots.
Positions in excess of these quotas shall be allocated so that the pre-merger
US Airways pilot group ends up holding twice the number of additional
captain positions and twice the number of additional first officer positions,
beyond its respective quotas, as are held by the America West pilot group.
2. Positions as captain on the B767/757-D (including all B767/757 captain
positions in PHX or LAS), or replacement aircraft, shall be allocated with
quotas of 159 positions for the pre-merger US Airways pilots and 87 for the
America West pilots. Positions in excess of the combined quota of 246
positions shall be allocated so that twice as many are awarded to pre-merger
US Airways pilots as to America West pilots. Positions shall be reduced
below the combined quota of 246 positions so that the pre-merger US Airways
pilot group ends up double the number of positions below its quota as the
America West pilot group is below its. A worksheet suitable for the allocation
accounting between the pilot groups is attached as Appendix A. Any vacancy
in the quota of a pilot group shall be filled by a pilot from that group.
3. Pursuant to the parties’ agreement dated June 13, 2006, and notwithstanding
the provisions of Paragraph 2 above, the America West pilot group shall be
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entitled to no fewer than seven captain and seven first officer positions on the
first merged bid if the pre-merger US Airways fleet includes at least 224
Airbus and Boeing aircraft at that time. In the event that there are insufficient
vacancies in the first bid, the America West pilots shall be entitled to be
awarded the remaining vacancies in subsequent bids until at least seven B757
captain and seven B757 first officer positions have been awarded to them. If
the US Airways fleet includes 223 or 222 Airbus and Boeing aircraft at that
time, the America West pilots shall be entitled to be awarded five or two B757
vacancies, respectively, in the first merged bid. If the US Airways fleet
includes 221 or fewer Airbus and Boeing aircraft at that time, the provisions
as to the minimum America West pilot B757 vacancies shall be inoperative.
4. Positions as captain on the B737/A320 aircraft, or replacement aircraft, shall
be allocated as with the B767/757-D captain positions, except that the quotas
shall be 914 and 782 for the pre-merger US Airways and America West pilots,
respectively, and the ratio for positions above or below the combined quota of
1,696 shall be five-to-four. A worksheet for the allocation accounting on
these positions is attached as Appendix B.
5. Pursuant to the award of Arbitrator Dana Eischen dated September 5, 2006,
the America West pilots shall be entitled to one-third of the captain and first
officer positions on the EMB-190 aircraft in operation on the date of the first
merged bid. In the event that there are insufficient vacancies in the first bid,
the America West pilots shall be entitled to be awarded the remaining
vacancies in subsequent bids until one-third of the captain and first officer
3
positions on the EMB-190 have been awarded to them. As EMB-190 aircraft
are added to or reduced from the fleet, bids shall be awarded so as to achieve
or preserve a relationship of two pre-merger US Airways pilots to each
America West pilot.
6. In the event that either pilot group fails to fill its allotment of positions on an
aircraft type under the quota and ratio system outlined above, the members of
the other pre-merger group shall be entitled to be awarded any positions for
which there are insufficient bidders and the conditions and restrictions
applicable to the position in question shall no longer be subject to the
limitations specified herein, but shall instead be awarded pursuant to the
integrated seniority list and merged collective bargaining agreement.
7. America West pilots shall be entitled to the following domicile protection:
a. An America West pilot involuntarily displaced from a position in PHX or
LAS shall have a priority right to reinstatement to that position or an
equivalent position in PHX or LAS ahead of a pre-merger US Airways
pilot if a vacancy in that position is posted for bidding effective during the
life of these conditions and restrictions or within seven months from the
pilot’s displacement, whichever affords the longer protection. For
purposes of this domicile protection, B737 and A320 captain positions
shall be deemed equivalent as shall first officer positions on the B737 and
A320. This provision shall not modify the aggregate allotments of the
America West pilot group specified in Paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and 4 of these
conditions and restrictions. A pilot who voluntarily fails to exercise his
4
right of reinstatement when available to him/her shall forfeit his/her right
with respect to ensuing vacancies, except that a pilot shall not forfeit
his/her right of reinstatement by bypassing a position in a domicile other
than the domicile to which he/she was assigned at the time he/she was
displaced. Nor shall a forfeiture of the right of reinstatement occur as a
result of a B737 pilot bypassing an A320 position, or vice versa.
b. In addition to the protection specified in Paragraph 7.a. above, the
America West pilot group shall be entitled to a total of 869 captain
positions in PHX and LAS on B737/A320/B757 aircraft, or replacement
aircraft. This provision shall not increase the America West pilot group’s
aggregate allotment of captain positions specified in Paragraphs 1, 2, 3
and 4 of these conditions and restrictions.
8. “Replacement” aircraft are aircraft of a type other than A330, B767/757,
A320, B737 or EMB 190, which are added to the fleet as one or more of the
foregoing types are retired, and which are intended to substitute for them in
the missions they perform and are similar in their capability to perform those
missions. “New” aircraft are aircraft types other than those listed in the
preceding sentence that are not “replacement” aircraft; positions on “new”
aircraft types shall be allocated to the pre-merger US Airways and America
West pilot groups, respectively, 2:1 on widebodies and 5:4 on narrowbodies.
9. Except as specifically stated in these conditions and restrictions, the integrated
seniority list and the merged CBA shall govern in all matters, including
promotion and demotion, choice of vacancies, filling of vacancies, assignment
5
or reassignment due to expansion or reduction in schedules, retention in case
of reduction in force, re-employment after release due to reduction in force;
provided, however, that any US Airways pilot on furlough on the date of the
first merged bid shall be subject to furlough ahead of America West pilots
junior to him/her for 365 days following his/her date of recall. The provisions
in Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 above for allocating the number of positions to
the respective pilot groups are intended to determine the number of positions
that the Company awards to each pilot group and are not otherwise to affect
the manner in which the Company closes the bids or administers the bidclosing
or seniority provisions of the collective bargaining agreement.
10. The conditions and restrictions established herein constitute an integral
element of the award of this Arbitration Board adopting a merged length-ofservice
seniority list and it is the intention of this Board that they shall remain
in effect, subject to their terms with regard to expiration and insufficient
bidders, even if the combined US Airways-America West seniority list is
subsequently merged with the seniority list of another carrier.

 

[Reed Richards]

The Nicolau award is the seniority list until a different one is negotiated in a new contract.

Until a few weeks ago you could have continued that argument. USAPA and US Airways now agree there is no contractual unified list (at least thats what the West Class hints at in their desperate call for appeal letters to their grievances.) Judge Wake said the NIC was it, in fact forced USAPA to push it across the table as a bargaining position. He was ruled out of order, his proceedings struck from the record. Judge Silver continues to tell both US Airways and Marty (embarrassingly many times in open court) that that she will NOT impose that list. The only question left is did USAPA have to use the list in the MOU? See all the above, consider her new "scheduling delay," and look at the current litigation with the DOJ. And of course the 98% ratification of the MOU by the West (discounting they were trick f....d into voting for it..good luck with that! The traffic on this forum alone will clear that up, but will not be required.) To be clear, there are TWO seniority lists at US Airways, and no contract even on the horizon. Barring the complete capitulation of USAPA, that is the status quo for years. RR

 

[traderjake]

To be clear, there are TWO seniority lists at US Airways, and no contract even on the horizon. Barring the complete capitulation of USAPA, that is the status quo for years. RR

Wrong, there is one seniorty list that will be implimented or replaced with a ratified contract.

The only way you get something other than the Nicolau Award is to negotiate it or if the merger goes through the arbitration panel gives you a 3 way.

It's true USAPA may not have to use the award but the only way that happens (if the courts allow it) is to negotiate a different seniority list.

 

[mrbreeze]

BS

 

[traderjake]

PROPOSED CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS

The following conditions and restrictions shall limit the application of the adjusted dateof-
hire seniority list for all bids effective on or before June 1, 2014:

Got any other fairy tales you want to tell tonight?

 

[Claxon]

It's true USAPA may not have to use the award but the only way that happens (if the courts allow it) is to negotiate a different seniority list.

They already ruled in USAPA's favor. Your thoughts please sir.

"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

DATED this 4th day of December, 2012.

Judge Silver

 

[luvthe9]

Got any other fairy tales you want to tell tonight?

Chippy has him working overtime tonight but bottom line is NIC is history.

 

[Reed Richards]

Wrong, there is one seniorty list that will be implimented or replaced with a ratified contract.

The only way you get something other than the Nicolau Award is to negotiate it or if the merger goes through the arbitration panel gives you a 3 way.

It's true USAPA may not have to use the award but the only way that happens (if the courts allow it) is to negotiate a different seniority list.

We are converging in logic, in some areas. First, you say the word "implemented." You should then agree there are currently 2 lists here, prior "implementation." The Ninth, Silver, USAPA, and now US Airways agree that LOA 96 can be changed with agreement of the parties, an implantation so to speak. But if the Company won't agree to change LOA 96, we are at an impasse, and have no other recourse for years. As I said, in that case the only way to a contract is with the NIC. The Courts do not "allow" us to do anything. The Company tried that logic in the declaratory judgment. They did not get a pass. The Courts rule after the fact, after ripeness. Nudge Judge Silver please, she has been sleeping. So you NOW agree there is a situation we can negotiate out of the NIC standalone? WOW! That is REAL progress, hope for you yet. As to the necessity of a 3 way going forward in a merger, that simply has no legal precedent or logic. Read the Wilder family filing to Judge Silver. Siegel was out to lunch saying in the CAB that the Court was allowed to dictate classes. Never happened, never will. The Courts cannot create a new bargaining class, that takes an election. Ask the NMB, you can be assured USAPA will. RR

 

[Claxon]

Nic4us, a true example of how the word scab should refer to a pilot.

"a. A worker who refuses membership in a labor union.
b. An employee who works while others are on strike; a strikebreaker.
c. A person hired to replace a striking worker."

 

[Claxon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgANbh81-8A

 

[Claxon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh9TFUZ8lBM

 

[mrbreeze]

I don't get this sites BS ops. bottom line is that I got my A330 type rating yesterday. In about 2 yrs, I will look at a left seat bid on the A320, about 2 yrs before retiring.......choices! Had we chosen the Kirby proposal, I would have gained about a 10% raise and would have been stuck there till retirement at around $95k/yr, due to West pilots cutting in line ahead of me. W/O the MOU, I am at $112/yr on the A330......and as all of you know, the MOU changes all of that. Thanks to my East brothers for standing up for what is right, I appreciate it! breeze

 

[Metroyet]

They already ruled in USAPA's favor. Your thoughts please sir.

"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

DATED this 4th day of December, 2012.

Judge Silver

Here is the "thought sir" WTF is the LUP? She DEMANDS you have one. What is it?