August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

Since the East would get the vast majority of any contract improvements I don't see the West helping USAPA get one.

You are thinking like a lot of them. There are a lot of guys on the bottom of the west list going nowhere. Making better than us is not winning and it's time do something. The separate ops thing has not really moved either side so we need to get a joint contract so the question can finally be answered. Besides, didn't you see the boy rep touting the Kirby proposal?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I was talking about your DJ, not the company's. I didn't make that clear and sort of forgot about the company's. Guess we have to wait that one out, but it should be done pretty quickly. If it leaves the question hanging again, then what?

The west has filed a Declaratory Judgment suit against USAPA in addition to the second DFR suit resulting from the MOU? I don't see any references to that on the cactus pilot site.

If the Ninth provides relief and definitively answers the question about a non-NIC DFR claim then the needle will move somewhat pending a SCOTUS appeal by the losing party. If the Ninth gives the Company full immunity from accepting a non-NIC list and that is the final verdict, then we will see if USAPA can negotiate for anything once the Section 22 fight is over. If they declare the the NIC is the only list that can bee negotiated for, then I suspect USAPA will find as may ways as possible to delay a CBA until the NMB shuts down the stall tactics. If the Ninth punts / kicks the decision down the road again, then separate ops is highly likely until there is enough grass roots demand to accept the NIC and move forward 1-20 years from now. All in my opinion of course.

 

[Pi brat]

The west has filed a Declaratory Judgment suit against USAPA in addition to the second DFR suit resulting from the MOU? I don't see any references to that on the cactus pilot site.

If the Ninth provides relief and definitively answers the question about a non-NIC DFR claim then the needle will move somewhat pending a SCOTUS appeal by the losing party. If the Ninth gives the Company full immunity from accepting a non-NIC list and that is the final verdict, then we will see if USAPA can negotiate for anything once the Section 22 fight is over. If they declare the the NIC is the only list that can bee negotiated for, then I suspect USAPA will find as may ways as possible to delay a CBA until the NMB shuts down the stall tactics. If the Ninth punts / kicks the decision down the road again, then separate ops is highly likely until there is enough grass roots demand to accept the NIC and move forward 1-20 years from now. All in my opinion of course.

You lost me. There are two DJ'S. The company's which is currently moving through the 9th circuit appeal. I predict a punt there. Then we have yours and your attorney says there is no case absent a merger.

You may be right, but how about another scenario. The west joins the east to get a JCBA, that makes your DFR ripe and you can then sue again.

 

[Pi brat]

Of course the company's reaction to a punt is unknown. That could make them finally take a stand in this.

 

[traderjake]

The west joins the east to get a JCBA, that makes your DFR ripe and you can then sue again.

Are you really proposing that the West help USAPA get a DOH/LOS contract?

 

[CallawayGolf]

You lost me. There are two DJ'S. The company's which is currently moving through the 9th circuit appeal. I predict a punt there. Then we have yours and your attorney says there is no case absent a merger.

You may be right, but how about another scenario. The west joins the east to get a JCBA, that makes your DFR ripe and you can then sue again.

The west isn't the problem as to why there is no JCBA. The Company has said repeatedly that they cannot accept a list from USAPA that appears to a violation of the TA and /or which puts them into a collusion liability with one or more of their pilot employees. If Addington I had not been filed and no west pilots or their independent representatives had sent the Company a letter re the NIC, then I think the Company would have filed their DJ suit sooner in order to avoid the NMB intervening with discussion of self-help. So, until and unless a court provides the Company with a clear path to negotiate a JCBA without violating the TA, there will be no moving forward unless of course USAPA agrees to the NIC or the NMB places the self-help ultimatum on the parties subsequent to getting no relief from the courts.

 

[Pi brat]

The west isn't the problem as to why there is no JCBA. The Company has said repeatedly that they cannot accept a list from USAPA that appears to a violation of the TA and /or which puts them into a collusion liability with one or more of their pilot employees. If Addington I had not been filed and no west pilots or their independent representatives had sent the Company a letter re the NIC, then I think the Company would have filed their DJ suit sooner in order to avoid the NMB intervening with discussion of self-help. So, until and unless a court provides the Company with a clear path to negotiate a JCBA without violating the TA, there will be no moving forward unless of course USAPA agrees to the NIC or the NMB places the self-help ultimatum on the parties subsequent to getting no relief from the courts.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Piedmont1984]

If we remain stand alone, it might be a good time to find out what the majority wants and whether or not sentiment has shifted in the last six years. The only accurate way to do that is to actually ask by way of questionnaire, polling, etc. The last true measurement of majority sentiment was the representational election. The most recent elections in CLT only underscore the fact that most no longer care about USAPA politics, just look at the percentage of eligible voters who participated.

All questions should be on the table. Use the MOU as a benchmark regarding pay and benefits. Would you accept the Nic? Would you accept USAPA's seniority proposal as currently promulgated by the union? Would you like to see USAPA modify its position on DOH?

Keep in mind that USAPA does not have an official merger policy as memorialized in a separate document or section. All it has is a general statement of intent located in Section 8 of the C&BLs.

Also keep in mind that if USAPA doesn't try something outside the box, the rank and file likely will with another card drive. FedEx returned to ALPA after 5 years in the wilderness. Not saying ALPA is right for us. Just saying that a union under permanent injunction, with NMB talks parked, rampant infighting not only between east and west, but intramural - is not a viable and sustainable long term option.

Does anyone know if USAPA were replaced by another in-house union how it would affect the injunction, contract talks, etc.? A new C&BLs could also help to resolve the seniority dispute.

Who knows, if we change unions enough times Nic won't be able to find us🙂

'84

 

[snapthis]

You are thinking like a lot of them. There are a lot of guys on the bottom of the west list going nowhere. Making better than us is not winning and it's time do something. The separate ops thing has not really moved either side so we need to get a joint contract so the question can finally be answered. Besides, didn't you see the boy rep touting the Kirby proposal?

There has been movement lately in Phoenix..

Below are the results of the 2013-02 Vacancy/Displacement/Recall Bid. Date: September 17, 2013
Re: Vacancy/Displacement/Recall Bid 2013-02

BID AWARD

320 Captains
Sen#
1 169
2 460
3 592
4 630
5 695
6 713
7 821
9 906
10 907
11 908
12 910
13 911
14 913
15 916
16 917
17 918

757 Captains
Sen#
1 835
2 876

 

[Phoenix]

There has been movement lately in Phoenix..

Below are the results of the 2013-02 Vacancy/Displacement/Recall Bid. Date: September 17, 2013
Re: Vacancy/Displacement/Recall Bid 2013-02

BID AWARD

320 Captains
Sen#
1 169
2 460
3 592
4 630
5 695
6 713
7 821
9 906
10 907
11 908
12 910
13 911
14 913
15 916
16 917
17 918

757 Captains
Sen#
1 835
2 876

Hey, you guys are happy. We'll stay separate!

 

[Phoenix]

If we remain stand alone, it might be a good time to find out what the majority wants and whether or not sentiment has shifted in the last six years. The only accurate way to do that is to actually ask by way of questionnaire, polling, etc. The last true measurement of majority sentiment was the representational election. The most recent elections in CLT only underscore the fact that most no longer care about USAPA politics, just look at the percentage of eligible voters who participated.

All questions should be on the table. Use the MOU as a benchmark regarding pay and benefits. Would you accept the Nic? Would you accept USAPA's seniority proposal as currently promulgated by the union? Would you like to see USAPA modify its position on DOH?

Keep in mind that USAPA does not have an official merger policy as memorialized in a separate document or section. All it has is a general statement of intent located in Section 8 of the C&BLs.

Also keep in mind that if USAPA doesn't try something outside the box, the rank and file likely will with another card drive. FedEx returned to ALPA after 5 years in the wilderness. Not saying ALPA is right for us. Just saying that a union under permanent injunction, with NMB talks parked, rampant infighting not only between east and west, but intramural - is not a viable and sustainable long term option.

Does anyone know if USAPA were replaced by another in-house union how it would affect the injunction, contract talks, etc.? A new C&BLs could also help to resolve the seniority dispute.

Who knows, if we change unions enough times Nic won't be able to find us🙂

'84

A union is ultimately controlled by its majority, regardless of the name, as the ALPA National lackeys found out. 😛

 

[CallawayGolf]

You're kidding, right?

Of course not. It only takes one east or west pilot to file a DFR/collusion lawsuit and place the Company in legal harm for sizable damages. IMO the Company was never going to collude with USAPA to violate the TA regardless of the statements or lawsuits made by the west pilots.

Do you have a different opinion?

 

[Phoenix]

I wasn't confused except as to why the DJ was referenced in the previous post vis-a-vis the merger.

You can quibble about his use of the term DJ, but you are just ignoring his point that is obviously valid. Marty Harper said you have no law suit if the merger falls apart. Focus on the relevant point or you might be accused of delay at all cost. 🙂

 

[Phoenix]

Of course not. It only takes one east or west pilot to file a DFR/collusion lawsuit and place the Company in legal harm for sizable damages. IMO the Company was never going to collude with USAPA to violate the TA regardless of the statements or lawsuits made by the west pilots.

Do you have a different opinion?

The excuses the company comes up with to avoid paying the raises they say "everyone deserves"... The company will blame everyone and everyone will point fingers at everyone... Human nature. Whatever..

Fact is if anyone wants Delta rates before age 65, then interview at Delta for the next 20 or 30 years, anytime their window opens. 🙂

 

[traderjake]

Fact is if anyone wants Delta rates before age 65, then interview at Delta for the next 20 or 30 years, anytime their window opens. 🙂

Maybe you should PM luvthe9 with that. 😀