August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

You can quibble about his use of the term DJ, but you are just ignoring his point that is obviously valid. Marty Harper said you have no law suit if the merger falls apart. Focus on the relevant point or you might be accused of delay at all cost. 🙂

I agree with Marty, PI and you on that point. I never thought the DFR on the MOU would go anywhere unless the merger was confirmed or completed. Frankly, I'm surprised it has gone this far. You can go back and check my posts from earlier in the year if you want confirmation on that. All I was doing was asking for clarification on a post that I didn't understand why the terms were used as they were.

Anything else I should focus on?

 

[Phoenix]

Maybe you should PM luvthe9 with that. 😀

That you read it and took it to heart means the world to me. 😀

 

[Phoenix]

I agree with Marty, PI and you on that point. I never thought the DFR on the MOU would go anywhere unless the merger was confirmed or completed. Frankly, I'm surprised it has gone this far. You can go back and check my posts from earlier in the year if you want confirmation on that. All I was doing was asking for clarification on a post that I didn't understand why the terms were used as they were.

Anything else I should focus on?

😀 😀

 

[traderjake]

That you read it and took it to heart means the world to me. 😀

I was worried about you, luvthe9 might think you're a weak d*ck. 🙄

 

[Phoenix]

I was worried about you, luvthe9 might think you're a weak d*ck. 🙄

I wasn't worried about you. :wub:

 

[Pi brat]

Do you have a different opinion?

Yeah, but nothing that we haven't covered a million times before.

Every once in a while I start thinking that maybe we might have gotten smarter, but then reality settles in. Oh well, holding a block for October and although I probably won't for the holidays, should consistently next year. That and the last child out of college, so that's my raise.

You mentioned your upgrades. So that's what, a couple dozen since 2005? And how about those guys that got recalled to be on reserve in PHX after being hired 8 years ago? Oh well, as long as everyone is happy.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yeah, but nothing that we haven't covered a million times before.

Every once in a while I start thinking that maybe we might have gotten smarter, but then reality settles in. Oh well, holding a block for October and although I probably won't for the holidays, should consistently next year. That and the last child out of college, so that's my raise.

You mentioned your upgrades. So that's what, a couple dozen since 2005? And how about those guys that got recalled to be on reserve in PHX after being hired 8 years ago? Oh well, as long as everyone is happy.

I doubt very many are happy. As I've said a number of times also, until a court provides a judgment that the Comapny and USAPA can act upon to complete work on the JCBA then nothing can happen no matter how happy or unhappy the rank and file are, unless of course USAPA accepts the NIC which everyone here knows isn't going to happen, even if its the only remaining solution.

 

[Pi brat]

I doubt very many are happy. As I've said a number of times also, until a court provides a judgment that the Comapny and USAPA can act upon to complete work on the JCBA then nothing can happen no matter how happy or unhappy the rank and file are, unless of course USAPA accepts the NIC which everyone here knows isn't going to happen, even if its the only remaining solution.

"even if its the only remaining solution"

There you have the crux of the problem. For the west that is the only remaining solution. For the east the only remaining solution is for the west to give up the Nic. There actually could be any number of other solutions, perhaps we could actually negotiate section 22 like the courts have said and as your psuedo-union is proposing on AII. But, I will concede that likely you are correct because of the dynamics of the situation.

You brought up something in earlier post about one guy filing a DFR and it being a problem for the company. That must be a generally accepted premise on the west because I have gone around and around with a west friend about it. I don't think one guy having an issue is a DFR. There is no way a union can act in the best wishes or even best needs of every single member. It's impossible, hence the "wide range of reasonableness." I think that we could negotiate a settlement that meets the needs of the group. But as long as the east has to have their way and the west has to have theirs we will just keep feeding management bonuses.

 

[Phoenix]

"even if its the only remaining solution"

There you have the crux of the problem. For the west that is the only remaining solution. For the east the only remaining solution is for the west to give up the Nic. There actually could be any number of other solutions, perhaps we could actually negotiate section 22 like the courts have said and as your psuedo-union is proposing on AII. But, I will concede that likely you are correct because of the dynamics of the situation.

You brought up something in earlier post about one guy filing a DFR and it being a problem for the company. That must be a generally accepted premise on the west because I have gone around and around with a west friend about it. I don't think one guy having an issue is a DFR. There is no way a union can act in the best wishes or even best needs of every single member. It's impossible, hence the "wide range of reasonableness." I think that we could negotiate a settlement that meets the needs of the group. But as long as the east has to have their way and the west has to have theirs we will just keep feeding management bonuses.

Wake didn't hold to the "wide range of reasonableness" standard for DFR but instead assumed the Nic was itself an enforceable contract. That failure and miscarriage has given false hope for others to hold to the same rather than to accept reality.

It's all or nothing for the Leo leaders. They even pretended to negotiate a new replacement to the TA but they were secretly planning to say it was illegal. Even if they negotiate it appears its reasly a trap and they still plan to hold out. Go figure. Even so no court can chose USAPA's negotiating position, so folks may as well discuss it till its all finished. 🙂

 

[CallawayGolf]

"even if its the only remaining solution"

There you have the crux of the problem. For the west that is the only remaining solution. For the east the only remaining solution is for the west to give up the Nic. There actually could be any number of other solutions, perhaps we could actually negotiate section 22 like the courts have said and as your psuedo-union is proposing on AII. But, I will concede that likely you are correct because of the dynamics of the situation.

You brought up something in earlier post about one guy filing a DFR and it being a problem for the company. That must be a generally accepted premise on the west because I have gone around and around with a west friend about it. I don't think one guy having an issue is a DFR. There is no way a union can act in the best wishes or even best needs of every single member. It's impossible, hence the "wide range of reasonableness." I think that we could negotiate a settlement that meets the needs of the group. But as long as the east has to have their way and the west has to have theirs we will just keep feeding management bonuses.

A wide range of reasonableness is fundamentally correct; but violating the clear terms of a collective bargaining agreement is not within that range of reasonableness, and the Company fully acknowledges that distinction. Violating a CBA to harm one group for the benefit of another group is traditionally seen as a DFR. If the Company assists the agent in harming a group of represented employees they are liable for collusion charges. The Company has far more to lose from helping USAPA harm the west pilots than they wold gain from having a JCBA. If that's what they are facing, why would they violate the TA and end up harming their shareholders and the west just so the east can get what they could not attain legally via arbitration?

 

[end_of_alpa]

The west isn't the problem as to why there is no JCBA. The Company has said repeatedly that they cannot accept a list from USAPA that appears to a violation of the TA and /or which puts them into a collusion liability with one or more of their pilot employees. If Addington I had not been filed and no west pilots or their independent representatives had sent the Company a letter re the NIC, then I think the Company would have filed their DJ suit sooner in order to avoid the NMB intervening with discussion of self-help. So, until and unless a court provides the Company with a clear path to negotiate a JCBA without violating the TA, there will be no moving forward unless of course USAPA agrees to the NIC or the NMB places the self-help ultimatum on the parties subsequent to getting no relief from the courts.

That's PURE BS! The Ninth was VERY CLEAR on this, but because AOL keeps coming up with obscure legal theories the Company "and their friend" Marty Harper who sent them a letter that they still will sue them. SO WHAT! Collusion is Marty's "legal theory" but that is a stretch at best and the Company knows it. The Company just plays along because it works to their advantage and continues to delay any contract. No matter. Nic is the Nic, final and binding, AOL is right and USAPA (and the pilots) are wrong, etc. etc. etc. Just keep making those obscure arguments, Calloway....

 

[end_of_alpa]

A wide range of reasonableness is fundamentally correct; but violating the clear terms of a collective bargaining agreement is not within that range of reasonableness, and the Company fully acknowledges that distinction. Violating a CBA to harm one group for the benefit of another group is traditionally seen as a DFR. If the Company assists the agent in harming a group of represented employees they are liable for collusion. Since the Company has far more to lose from helping USAPA harm the west pilots than they wold gain from having a JCBA. If that's what they are facing, why would they violate the TA and end up harming their shareholders and the west just so the east can get what they could not attain legally via arbitration?

You guys keep making those obscure arguments. Harm has YET TO BE SEEN! Ninth language, not mine. The T/A may be interpreted by AOL and Marty to be a CBA (which it really isn't, it's just an agreement to maintain a "status quo" that the Company is required to maintain) which it really isn't.....The Company DOESN'T KNOW any more about the potential harm than they know about the DOJ filing a suit is Federal District Court for violations of the Clayton Act. The Company NEVER SAID they would harm the West pilots, they just said that Marty is MAKING THE ARGUMENT of harm. You really don't see the whipsaw.

 

[CallawayGolf]

That's PURE BS! The Ninth was VERY CLEAR on this, but because AOL keeps coming up with obscure legal theories the Company "and their friend" Marty Harper who sent them a letter that they still will sue them. SO WHAT! Collusion is Marty's "legal theory" but that is a stretch at best and the Company knows it. The Company just plays along because it works to their advantage and continues to delay any contract. No matter. Nic is the Nic, final and binding, AOL is right and USAPA (and the pilots) are wrong, etc. etc. etc. Just keep making those obscure arguments, Calloway....

Obscure? The Company has filed a DJ suit to get legal clarification and has filed an appeal since that clarification did not come at the district level. The clearly outlined their Hobson's Choice that USAPA had placed them in by demanding a seniority solution that had already been found to be a DFR in Addington I until the Ninth dismissed on ripeness.

Are you accusing the Company of lying to a federal judge and also to the Ninth in their appeal? Silver said their claim of harm based on two clear threats from their pilots and or their union was ripe and required judicial relief. Was she lying too?

 

[CallawayGolf]

You guys keep making those obscure arguments. Harm has YET TO BE SEEN! Ninth language, not mine. The T/A may be interpreted by AOL and Marty to be a CBA (which it really isn't, it's just an agreement to maintain a "status quo" that the Company is required to maintain) which it really isn't.....The Company DOESN'T KNOW any more about the potential harm than they know about the DOJ filing a suit is Federal District Court for violations of the Clayton Act. The Company NEVER SAID they would harm the West pilots, they just said that Marty is MAKING THE ARGUMENT of harm. You really don't see the whipsaw.

There is no whipsaw. The Company has a fiduciary responsibility to not expose themselves to a costly violation of the contract. So long as USAPA demands a seniority regime of questionable legality, negotiations will remain stalled pending judicial relief. Only USAPA can install negotiations; a strategy they were formed to exploit - delay the NIC implementation no matter the cost.

 

[Reed Richards]

So long as USAPA demands a seniority regime of questionable legality, negotiations will remain stalled pending judicial relief. Only USAPA can install negotiations; a strategy they were formed to exploit - delay the NIC implementation no matter the cost.

Kinda sorta. The majority at USAPA could indeed decide to eat the NIC. Both of us know that will not happen. But it is not USAPA delaying negotiations, it is the litigation...none of it initiated by USAPA. The quicker the litigation ends, the quicker we can get a real contract, actual ripeness, and your slam dunk DFR win in another AZ court. Another way, if you are so confident in a DFR win, why not move forward with pay raises and new contract and THEN sue? Win/Win.
You are spot on about the strategy to delay the NIC, but the delay has been so successful that the NIC passed away. RIP. RR