BK

[comatose]

Tell me that 6 months after your out of a job. I made almost $90,000 this year with a little overtime. I don't know how I can stand to work here. People are losing their homes, can't pay medical bills, etc. and we have people with this kind of arrogance. To get half a days work out of some in the work area is saying too much. Okay, ranting here but sick and tired of the attitudes. Would love to hear your comments after the fact.

To make 90k, your definition of a little OT is 10-12 hours per week.

Hardly little. I value my days off and time off with my family.

I don't value working 10-12 hours per week just to make what
UPS mechanics are working for straight time.

 

[FWAAA]

Disagree.

The failure of "management" (using the term rather loosely) was to not take full advantage of the goodwill expressed by the employees via the 2003 givebacks and actually begin to manage the company as an entity designed to make a profit and not simply be an executive piggy bank.

What do you feel would have been the necessary amount of concessions? Remember, before you answer, our concession was >30% of our total compensation package. Do you think 50-75% would have done the trick?

Maybe your personal concessions were north of 30%, but company-wide, the pay and benefit cuts were just 13%, not 30% or more. Employees gave back approximately $1.0 billion in paycuts and benefit reductions plus work rule changes that resulted in job reductions that saved AA another $800 million. That billion dollars of pay and benefit cuts was just 13% of pay immediately prior to the concessions.

And the paycuts appeared large enough when imposed in May, 2003; not too many months later, when Delta pilots gave back $1.0 billion in annual concessions, it began to appear that AA's concessions might not have been enough. When Delta pilots gave back another $300 million (total concessions almost as large as AA's total concessions from all employees), it was obvious that AA's concessions were not large enough. When fuel went from $2.5 billion per year up to $8.0 billion per year, there was no doubt that AA didn't whack pay and benefits enough.

AA's pilots gave $660 million in concessions between pay and benefit cuts plus job losses and left --> right seat shifts. Delta's pilots gave back a total of $1.3 billion of concessions before and during their bankruptcy (and DL had fewer pilots at the time of their concessions than did AA in May, 2003). AA's unionized employees gave back a total of $1.62 billion in pay and benefit cuts plus job losses; DL pilots alone gave back 80% of AA's total unionized workforce concessions ($1.3/$1.62 = 80%).

50% to 75%? Hyperbole much?

Bullshit - I don't care how much lipstick is put on that pig. When headcount is increased for no reason other than extra income from union dues to the twu, there's a severe problem.

Why does AA need 2 VPs per aircraft?

They had their chance - no more.

I don't follow the comment about headcount increases - the TWU-represented workforce has been shrunken substantially over the past 8+ years.

Two VPs per aircraft? Does AA really have more than 1,200 VPs on the payroll right now? Sounds like more hyperbole to me.

At the time they were more than enough F. And if the airline would have been managed a little better, we wouldn't
be in the serious situation we are F. Maybe trouble, but not as bad F.

Like I told the Goose, I agree with you. They looked plenty large when shoved down your throat. But with the benefit of hindsight, it's clear they weren't large enough.

Had AA imposed 26% pay and benefit cuts (twice as much as the actual concessions), you guys would have had a lot more leverage to get back some of what you gave up, as profitable companies generally hurry to settle labor issues to protect the profits. Companies that lose $3 million to $4 million per day (as AA is currently losing) are usually in no hurry to settle labor issues - as the past few years has shown. Disruptions during profitable times equals huge, nonrecoverable losses. Disruptions during losing times equal losses - which AA has been reporting for four consecutive years 2008-11.

 

[Hopeful]

Like I told the Goose, I agree with you. They looked plenty large when shoved down your throat. But with the benefit of hindsight, it's clear they weren't large enough.

Had AA imposed 26% pay and benefit cuts (twice as much as the actual concessions), you guys would have had a lot more leverage to get back some of what you gave up, as profitable companies generally hurry to settle labor issues to protect the profits. Companies that lose $3 million to $4 million per day (as AA is currently losing) are usually in no hurry to settle labor issues - as the past few years has shown. Disruptions during profitable times equals huge, nonrecoverable losses. Disruptions during losing times equal losses - which AA has been reporting for four consecutive years 2008-11.

I could not disagree more with this analysis..
Once AA took away 40 years of contractual gains, from that moment on EVERY ITEM taken from us would have to be fought for all over again as if it was the first time. Do you really believe that UAL, CO, USAIR, DL have restored to employees everything they lost and MORE ? Airline employees are still years away from where they were.
The things you see as wins for labor are things that were had years ago.
Leverage my ass!

 

[FWAAA]

I could not disagree more with this analysis..
Once AA took away 40 years of contractual gains, from that moment on EVERY ITEM taken from us would have to be fought for all over again as if it was the first time. Do you really believe that UAL, CO, USAIR, DL have restored to employees everything they lost and MORE ? Airline employees are still years away from where they were.
The things you see as wins for labor are things that were had years ago.
Leverage my ass!

You may be right - AA might not have been willing to restore any of the cuts even if you had agreed to larger concessions (making it more likely that 2008-11 would have been profitable or break even instead of huge losses). I may be wrong.

No, I don't think that the employees at UAL, CO, US or DL have recovered all of their huge concessions, but our resident DL cheerleader posts over and over and over again (without challenge) that many of the legacy competitors' employees have seen much of their concessions restored. To be fair, he uses plenty of weasel words to try to avoid anyone calling him on his BS.

I do know that the new DL pilot payrates place DL pilots ahead of many AA pilots, and that spread will continue to grow unless AA and the APA agree to some substantial pay raises. DL currently pays its A319 pilots $174/hr compared to AA's offer of $139. US pilots, on the other hand (at least US East), are paid less than jetBlue pilots. They haven't recovered any of their paycuts.

AA pilots had the highest payrates of any legacy competitors after the DL pilots suffered their two rounds of concessions. Of course, WN and the freight haulers (UPS, FedEX and others) paid their pilots more, but none of the bankrupt pax airlines did.

 

[Hopeful]

You may be right - AA might not have been willing to restore any of the cuts even if you had agreed to larger concessions (making it more likely that 2008-11 would have been profitable or break even instead of huge losses). I may be wrong.

No, I don't think that the employees at UAL, CO, US or DL have recovered all of their huge concessions, but our resident DL cheerleader posts over and over and over again (without challenge) that many of the legacy competitors' employees have seen much of their concessions restored. To be fair, he uses plenty of weasel words to try to avoid anyone calling him on his BS.

I do know that the new DL pilot payrates place DL pilots ahead of many AA pilots, and that spread will continue to grow unless AA and the APA agree to some substantial pay raises. DL currently pays its A319 pilots $174/hr compared to AA's offer of $139. US pilots, on the other hand (at least US East), are paid less than jetBlue pilots. They haven't recovered any of their paycuts.

AA pilots had the highest payrates of any legacy competitors after the DL pilots suffered their two rounds of concessions. Of course, WN and the freight haulers (UPS, FedEX and others) paid their pilots more, but none of the bankrupt pax airlines did.

For some time the debate over AA doing in house OH pointed to a cost disadvantage. No one can really put a price on that cost. I wonder if the company has put a price on the cost disadvantage of SCOPE?
Since the company seems to want SCOPE so badly, you would think the bean counters have placed a value on it.

 

[Buck]

For some time the debate over AA doing in house OH pointed to a cost disadvantage. No one can really put a price on that cost. I wonder if the company has put a price on the cost disadvantage of SCOPE?
Since the company seems to want SCOPE so badly, you would think the bean counters have placed a value on it.

An Analyst group( cannot recall the name ) was hired by the company to look at in sourcing etc.. The only item that it could take on was Aircraft OH, because the company does not have the space to perform any other work. But there is a cost advantage to bring in work in all the back shops from other customers. Doing their own work allows the company to maintain control. I believe the Bob Owens said something about this?

 

[Hopeful]

An Analyst group( cannot recall the name ) was hired by the company to look at in sourcing etc.. The only item that it could take on was Aircraft OH, because the company does not have the space to perform any other work. But there is a cost advantage to bring in work in all the back shops from other customers. Doing their own work allows the company to maintain control. I believe the Bob Owens said something about this?

I believe he has, but the company cannot or will not give a $$$$ value on what it costs them. i guess the same goes for SCOPE!

 

[WorldTraveler]

You may be right - AA might not have been willing to restore any of the cuts even if you had agreed to larger concessions (making it more likely that 2008-11 would have been profitable or break even instead of huge losses). I may be wrong.

No, I don't think that the employees at UAL, CO, US or DL have recovered all of their huge concessions, but our resident DL cheerleader posts over and over and over again (without challenge) that many of the legacy competitors' employees have seen much of their concessions restored. To be fair, he uses plenty of weasel words to try to avoid anyone calling him on his BS.

I do know that the new DL pilot payrates place DL pilots ahead of many AA pilots, and that spread will continue to grow unless AA and the APA agree to some substantial pay raises. DL currently pays its A319 pilots $174/hr compared to AA's offer of $139. US pilots, on the other hand (at least US East), are paid less than jetBlue pilots. They haven't recovered any of their paycuts.

AA pilots had the highest payrates of any legacy competitors after the DL pilots suffered their two rounds of concessions. Of course, WN and the freight haulers (UPS, FedEX and others) paid their pilots more, but none of the bankrupt pax airlines did.

you can use whatever words you want... I only care about the data.
I have simply disputed the notion that airline employees who went through BK have been unable to recover the losses they suffered in BK while allowing you and others to argue that AA employees have fared so much better.
.
In fact, when pensions were terminated and the PBGC assumed the pensions, those employees who suffered losses which the PBGC could not cover became claimants in the BK case. Not only did the PBGC receive compensation for assuming the plans, but the employee groups thru their unions received compensation.
And as we have noted, some airline employees (mostly PMNW and PMDL non-pilots) STILL have their pension benefits under the same terms of the original plans - just with a frozen date of service.
.
Many employees also received stock in the reorganized company, cash payouts, and have now received profit sharing.
.
By information I can see on airlinepilotcentral, DL pilots are now the highest paid network airline pilots and they will get another raise and increase in pension contributions the first of the year.
.
WN pilots are still paid better than most DL domestic pilots but part of the strategy DL took was to rework its network to increase international flying - which had the effect of reducing the number ofcrew members who were subject to the size of the cuts DL imposed.
.
I am certain that the calculation as to what any airline employee has recovered is highly personal and that is why no one steps forward with that information. But it is absolutely true that many employees have recovered some of what they lost.
At the same time, it is certain that AA employees are facing more cuts and an even longer time before they can hope to begin the earnings recovery process.

 

[chris perry]

Keyword Company wide....Management made sure they got theirs,added layers upon layers of fat....then blame it upon the backs of hourly workers.

 

[eolesen]

[management] added layers upon layers of fat

Breakroom myth, but do keep trying...

 

[Frank Szabo]

FWAAA:

The 1200 VP figure was something I thought I remembered from years past - like everything else in my head, the number probably got twisted with age and lack of alcohol as I quit drinking years ago (too much blood in the alcohol system). No matter, though - considering their present function (simply someone to blame for any discrepancies by their bosses), two in TOTAL would be far too many.

 

[AANOTOK]

$1.63 and falling like a rock!

 

[FWAAA]

The Malaysian investor who bought 7.3% of AMR earlier this year suffers from bad timing:

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airline-industry/20110815-asian-investor-group-of-firms-take-stake-in-american-airlines-parent-amr.ece

His financial prowess with AMR is matched only by the idiots in Iceland who bought near the peak in late 2006-early 2007 (when AMR hit $41/sh) and then were mad that their investment tanked as oil climbed.

 

[AANOTOK]

Just keeps getting better. Something has to give.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/11/sp-drops-ratings-for-amr-ameri.html

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Vaughn Cordle, but still interesting reading.

Creditors in Drivers Seat