Cost Neutral Cost Does NOT include MGMT

[qwerty]

Just Remember Cost neutral!!!! This is what Doug wants all the workers that MAKE US FLY to believe.

Considering a good percentage of managers are no longer employed, and no longer drawing a paycheck - cost neutral would mean big raises all around the management ranks (on the order of 30%).

Let's leave the class envy out of this, there is an incentive for working ones way up the ladder, using ones education and (unfortunately) playing the politics of big business.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What matters is how much the Pres made last year.

Well, last year the CEO and President's combined salary was $550,000 - Parker wore both hats.

I can't find Parker's salary now that he is "only" CEO, but doubt it's less than last year. Add Kirby's salary as President, and the two positions combined pay over $1 million - nearly double last year.

Jim

 

[qwerty]

Using the same logic, then every pilot should get a raise as retirement and other attrition reduce the number of pilots on the property. Same cost spread over fewer employees remaining cost neutral.

What do you think?

Are you gonna kick in for the new guy's paycheck when the hiring starts again?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Considering a good percentage of managers are no longer employed, and no longer drawing a paycheck - cost neutral would mean big raises all around the management ranks (on the order of 30%).

Someone else tried that logic earlier in the "cost neutral" thread. I'm still waiting for my pay raise since there are less pilots also - cost neutral and all that......

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Are you gonna kick in for the new guy's paycheck when the hiring starts again?

Just like Doug and Scott did when several people got promoted recently....

Jim

 

[qwerty]

Someone else tried that logic earlier in the "cost neutral" thread. I'm still waiting for my pay raise since there are less pilots also - cost neutral and all that......

Jim

Doesn't address the class envy crowd, spread the wealth over all in class employees and you'll have a leg to stand on.

The bigger issue here is what to do about the cyclical nature of salaries. Tania and the AWA pilots say the good times are here, and it's time to pay up. The company will fight tooth and nail to keep cost neutral because the union would do the same to hold on when times get tough. Do the AWA piolts have profit sharing?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The bigger issue here is what to do about the cyclical nature of salaries.

Oh, I doubt Doug, Scott, etc have to worry too much about the cyclical nature of their salaries....

Jim

 

[UPNAWAY]

Lets face it anyone in a Union is never going to be happy w/ what they make as compared to others in a large part becuase they are in a Union! It is after a while a completely pointless excerise.
As a side bar I would like to ask why does Union leadership always make the classic error of over promising and under delivering? They should take a lesson from mngmt and do just the opposite.

 

[Dog Wonder]

make the classic error of over promising and under delivering? They should take a lesson from mngmt and do just the opposite.

Are you saying management isn't under delivering. Have you seen the DOT stats?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Lets face it anyone in a Union is never going to be happy w/ what they make as compared to others in a large part becuase they are in a Union! It is after a while a completely pointless excerise.

Let's look at union pay for the same job....

TOS captain rates for 737/A320 series or equivalent:

WN 737 $198
AA 737-800 $161, MD80 $157
F9 A318/319 $157
AL 737 $154
FL 737/717 $153
NZ A321 $152 A319 $138
CO 737-700/500/300 $144
B6 A320 $139 (50% more for anything over 70 hrs)
HP 737/A320 $138
NW A320 $137
DL 737-300 $134
UA A320/737 $131

And last (any way you want to define it)

US 737/A320 $125

Care to construct a similiar list for CEO pay?

Jim

 

[qwerty]

Oh, I doubt Doug, Scott, etc have to worry too much about the cyclical nature of their salaries....

Jim

A stock option with a strike price of $46 is worthless with a stock price at $46. Yeah, I think they do.

And I notice you didn't include regional pilot pay. Some of those Allegheny Captains have been at it a long time, if spreading the wealth is the issue, how about spreading some to them?

 

[BoeingBoy]

if spreading the wealth is the issue, how about spreading some to them?

That's your line, not mine....

Let's see - you say that as long as total management salary cost is constant, their raises are cost neutral. Yet cost neutral has a different definition for the rank and file.

You're supportive of management spreading the wealth of the company coffers among themselves. Yet you ridicule the rank file's desire for a small taste of the same as "class envy".

You question why I don't include pilot pay at the regionals, but where is your comparison of the senior execs salaries with even the majors. Show us all that Parker's salary is at the bottom of the list. Then you might have half a leg to stand on.....

Jim

Oh - lest I forget....

A stock option with a strike price of $46 is worthless with a stock price at $46. Yeah, I think they do.

See the quote I was replying to - I even quoted it in my post. Of course, like a good spinmeister you avoided it:

The bigger issue here is what to do about the cyclical nature of salaries.

Like I said, I doubt Doug and Scott have to worry about that....

 

[qwerty]

That's your line, not mine....

Let's see - you say that as long as total management salary cost is constant, their raises are cost neutral. Yet cost neutral has a different definition for the rank and file.

You're supportive of management spreading the wealth of the company coffers among themselves. Yet you ridicule the rank file's desire for a small taste of the same as "class envy".

You question why I don't include pilot pay at the regionals, but where is your comparison of the senior execs salaries with even the majors. Show us all that Parker's salary is at the bottom of the list. Then you might have half a leg to stand on.....

Jim

Sorry Jim I think I strayed off the original topic (I like your posts, you make more solid, valid points than most on here.)

Let me clarify my opinion - cost neutral doesn't work for management. Strong, experienced managers are in demand and their price is increasing. Unionized work does not add the same value and therefore pay is based on an overabundance of supply.

I am not in favor of sharing the wealth - my point is that those that whine about executive salary do not feel the same way about their peers doing the same work making considerably less. When you choose to work in an enviorment that is based primarily on seniority - to complain about the salary structure of another group is pure envy. (I don't see anyone whining that the Manager of Payroll makes $X. Who are they to decide what that person is worth?)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Let me clarify my opinion - cost neutral doesn't work for management. Strong, experienced managers are in demand and their price is increasing. Unionized work does not add the same value and therefore pay is based on an overabundance of supply.

Oh, it's quite obvious management's price is increasing....

As for added value, I'll make you the same offer I once make Hawk. Let management stay home one week, worker bees the next. We'll see which week the airline operates better. Seriously, though - 2500 pilots can affect the bottom line $75-$100 million without breaking a sweat. What would a CEO that could do that be worth?

My whole problem is the double standard. If one quarter's profits shouldn't mean improvements for the workers, why do they mean big raises for senior management.

If the workers should be satisfied with what they've got (a contract is a contract, right?), why shouldn't senior management (their contracts are contracts, right?).

Why is it ok for senior management to "negotiate" pay raises but wrong for the workers to want to do the same?

Last, we know Doug made about $9 million from his stock options - how about explaining his stock appreciation rights to everyone? How many, who pays the "profit" when they're exercised, etc. Throw in the other senior execs for extra points....

One thing's for sure - if you're not in upper management you've certainly got the attitude for it. The "Execs are special. Execs are entitled to anything they can get. Worker bees are nothing. They're a dime a dozen."

Jim

 

[qwerty]

Oh, it's quite obvious management's price is increasing....

As for added value, I'll make you the same offer I once make Hawk. Let management stay home one week, worker bees the next. We'll see which week the airline operates better. Seriously, though - 2500 pilots can affect the bottom line $75-$100 million without breaking a sweat. What would a CEO that could do that be worth?

My whole problem is the double standard. If one quarter's profits shouldn't mean improvements for the workers, why do they mean big raises for senior management.

If the workers should be satisfied with what they've got (a contract is a contract, right?), why shouldn't senior management (their contracts are contracts, right?).

Why is it ok for senior management to "negotiate" pay raises but wrong for the workers to want to do the same?

Last, we know Doug made about $9 million from his stock options - how about explaining his stock appreciation rights to everyone? How many, who pays the "profit" when they're exercised, etc. Throw in the other senior execs for extra points....

One thing's for sure - if you're not in upper management you've certainly got the attitude for it. The "Execs are special. Execs are entitled to anything they can get. Worker bees are nothing. They're a dime a dozen."

Jim

A management team could liquidate the company, divide the profits up with the shareholders and go home - there's a couple billion without breaking a sweat. A unionized TSA could shut down the entire industry - should we pay them $120,000 a year? But let's get real.

Everyone from the Board on down is just a hired gun - even the p/t ramper. Do people with greater responsibility deserve a higer payscale? In my opinion, yes. Did Doug Parker manage a process that brought 2 companies back from the brink, and does he deserve to be paid what he negotiated, yes. Do you or anyone else have the right to rework a contract....yes.

I never said you don't deserve it and shouldn't negotiate it - I just think comparing your situation to that of an individual senior exec does nothing but stir the pot.