Court approves termination, but it has to be done through collective bargaining - ALPA prevents term

[RowUnderDCA]

[blockquote]
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On 3/1/2003 924 PM us10 wrote:

All parties have very limited room to move to the others' position. As the judge's ruling indicates the company can't afford the DBP.If the company tries to sweeten the DCP the PBGC will probably object citing abuse of the insurance system.
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[/blockquote]

Geez, this is where I came into this debate... what 3 months ago!!!

 

[dfw79]

Hmmm, from the sounds of it this was merely a "push" for both sides. 30 Days and counnting...

With all this talk about going after all employee pensions...I wonder how high the "delay due to flight crew" figure will go up on flights. The other 25,000 give or take will still do their job correctly, but I doubt they are going to give any slack to pilots anymore. You want coffee in the morning? There is a food court. You want to cut through counter/operations areas (in some airports) to avoid security? Sorry. Oh...your hotel crew van isn't here? There is a pay phone out by the counters.

Things will get really petty behind the scenes - just so the pax don't see. At least the pilots "strike talk"...or at least that of a few outspoken pilots has been silenced as this issue must be settled through arbitration. Of course the pilots can hold and illegal strike if they want - there are plenty of pilots able to fill in for newly terminated pilots. I mean...they can't be called scabs for an illegal job action by a few blow hards thumping their chest.

One last thought. The company should try anything possible to rearrange retirement packages (the war should bring this opportunity up soon)in order to make it extremely hard for senior pilots to stay. Run those people off and start getting young, hungry pilots in here that aren't going to be paid hundreds of thousands a year. Imagine if they could lay pilots off from the top of the list down - no pay cuts for anyone.

 

[LavMan]

If it is the end of the company what do you win?
You win losing a six figure income, you end up with no medical insurance and a terminate pension plan paying $28,000 a year.

What a victory!

And watch for this language in ALPA's agreement for their new pension.

ALPA's participation will be contingent in the IAM, AFA and management give up their DBPs also!

If ALPA take this stance which they all ready will as their objection and court testimony states, you might as well close the doors and the last one left shut the lights, cause this will cause a war between ALPA and the rest of the employees.

Like I said, where was ALPA in 1992 when they agents lost their pension?

They were cutting deals to get pilots on layoff collecting FULL PAY and not honoring picket lines.

Now they will come after our measly pensions!

 

[Diesel8]

DFW79,

Should the pilots at US decide to perform any kind of job action, you will find very few standing in line to take their jobs. You will be considered a scab and rightfully so.

Most pilots that I know, consider the actions of U management to be a blow below the belt.

Flame away!

 

[PITbull]

Father,

Hope I did no offend you. Good night.

 

[fatherabraham]

Pittbull,

You wrote:

---------
Father,

I hope you are not implying that I believe the pilots are OVERPAID. I am saying that they are considered the "advantaged", in that they still can maintain a livable wage, while others who had a livable wage before the concessions, now do not; making them LESS advantaged, (if you check out the above post where this originated).

Pittbull
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Pitbull,

No i am not implying anything. I agree with much of what you post. I think you are very level headed and appreciate your post.

I am too tired to look back and see who started the advantaged/disadvantaged statement. Rather i was only responding to Pacemakers logic. I will note that you sometimes assume a pilot or another must be advantaged over another. Since we cannot walk in anothers shoes or have lived their lives I think it is wrong to categorize in such fashion.

My human nature loves to see the " advantaged " get hamered ( for example S. Schofield and other managers losing pension benefits ).
But when I ask myself why, I have to honestly answer that it's partly jealosy and part revenge. Neither one is right!
But silly me....I still have values of right and wrong that were taught when we were young, not the kind of ethics we see today in our culture and practiced by our senior MGT. Ok, sermon over....good nite and God Bless

 

[delldude]

wish i could try and make it on a 90k pension.....lav man-ain't enough time to do a round 3....

 

[Pacemaker]

[blockquote]
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On 3/1/2003 10:42:44 PM dfw79 wrote:

The other 25,000 give or take will still do their job correctly, but I doubt they are going to give any slack to pilots anymore. You want coffee in the morning? There is a food court. You want to cut through counter/operations areas (in some airports) to avoid security? Sorry. Oh...your hotel crew van isn't here? There is a pay phone out by the counters.
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[/blockquote]

Dfw79 - And this would differ from business as usual exactly how?

 

[zonecontroller]

I cannot imagine how difficult these times would be if their wasn’t someone as compassionate as labor friendly Dave running this outfit!

 

[Upsgnr]

FatherAbraham wrote to Pacemaker:

Your wasting your time with sound logic on this board. I know...I fought the good fight and lost. 90% + posters are of the mindset that anyone who EARNS more than them are overpaid. Of course they would'nt embrace socialism if it meant say the airport janitor / food service / shoe shiner / aircraft fueler etc. were paid their salary w/o paying the dues to EARN it.

FatherAbraham:

Wrong, the problem with the pilots is the prevailing attitude in this country with those who make a good income namely socialism for me, capitalism for everybody else.

The market has spoken, the judge has ruled that USairways can't afford to pay the pilots pensions it's time to sit down and negotiate a new pension plan.

Uncle Sam is not going to bail you out, so it's time to get real. Our capitalist system works after a fashion; the judge's ruling was a compromise in that it makes everyone equally unhappy - time to move on.

 

[delldude]

heres what i think the company and alpa will try to come to center on:
some type seniority related contribution based on how many years you have until retirement.
senior get more for a shorter time and junior gets less for a longer time.
however,i don't think anyones going to get anywhere near what they had planned.sad but true...

 

[tug_slug]

[blockquote]
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On 3/1/2003 10:51:43 PM Diesel8 wrote:

DFW79,

Should the pilots at US decide to perform any kind of job action, you will find very few standing in line to take their jobs. You will be considered a scab and rightfully so.

Most pilots that I know, consider the actions of U management to be a blow below the belt.

Flame away!
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[/blockquote]

My reply to your post is by no means a flame but you have to look at it from an unemployed pilots point of view. One that has or is about to see his unemployment benefits run out. Someone who has or is about to lose his/her house because they can no make the payments.

The word scab means nothing to someone who is struggling to put food on the table or clothes on their children's back.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Let's not blame ALPA and be angry at ALPA for winning its critical objection. They did what no other union was willing to do. And they probably did it because the ALPA membership made it clear to them that they wouldn't tolerate anythiing less than going to the Judge. For that I must applaud the ALPA membership.

I would expect ALPA will come out much better now than if they were to just, let's say, take it in the pants like others have.

Now the company must negotiate before the arbitration ruling or risk losing the arbitration ruling which would put increased power into ALPA's hands. Either way, the company will find a way to survive this particular issue.

And I'm not saying the Pilots won't finally get their pension terminated, rather, by fighting the injustice, they will end up with a greater retirement portion than what was originally offered by Corporate Greed.


Tim Nelson
IAMLC 1487

 

[geo1004]

[blockquote]
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On 3/1/2003 1137 PM PineyBob wrote:

Because Geo as bad as US is right now it is BETTER than Dleta will EVER be!

Somebody has to show the morons in CCY that no matter how bad they screw up, the front liners will bust their butts for you and me! [/blockquote]


Don't worry Bob. I am still supporting US. I've got two trans-atlantics and another trip to Florida booked already. And NONE of them are on roach fares either.

 

[UFO]

[blockquote]
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On 3/2/2003 9:22:09 AM DELLDUDE wrote:

heres what i think the company and alpa will try to come to center on:

some type seniority related contribution based on how many years you have until retirement.

senior get more for a shorter time and junior gets less for a longer time.

however,i don't think anyones going to get anywhere near what they had planned.sad but true...
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[/blockquote]
Dell,

I think you may be real close to what will transpire. The challenge for alpa will be to spread the pain as fairly as possible across the entire pilot spectrum.
The biggest wildcard in all of this from what I've read is the PBGC. Crafting an alternative retirement plan that will pass muster with the PBGC may prove very difficult. I guess we will find out in the near future.


"There is no security on this earth; there is only opportunity." General MacArthur