Court approves termination, but it has to be done through collective bargaining - ALPA prevents term

[delldude]

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On 3/2/2003 10:07:25 AM Tim Nelson wrote:

Let's not blame ALPA and be angry at ALPA for winning its critical objection. They did what no other union was willing to do. And they probably did it because the ALPA membership made it clear to them that they wouldn't tolerate anythiing less than going to the Judge. For that I must applaud the ALPA membership.

I would expect ALPA will come out much better now than if they were to just, let's say, take it in the pants like others have.

Now the company must negotiate before the arbitration ruling or risk losing the arbitration ruling which would put increased power into ALPA's hands. Either way, the company will find a way to survive this particular issue.

And I'm not saying the Pilots won't finally get their pension terminated, rather, by fighting the injustice, they will end up with a greater retirement portion than what was originally offered by Corporate Greed.


Tim Nelson
IAMLC 1487
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how do they get to arbitration so fast?didn't they file feb 5th and now mar 13th they're in arbitration?

 

[DLFlyer31]

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On 3/1/2003 1137 PM PineyBob wrote:

Because Geo as bad as US is right now it is BETTER than Dleta will EVER be!

Somebody has to show the morons in CCY that no matter how bad they screw up, the front liners will bust their butts for you and me! If you want to be a traitor and support the ONE Airline that is actively attacking the business FFer be my guest! Shoot yourself in the foot! Please contribute to the gutting of every FF program out there by flying Delta!
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[/blockquote]

God forbid an airline should make money on their frequent fliers. Unlike USAirways, some airlines would actually like to make money without going through the BK system. The reason airlines are gutting their FF programs is because they are losing tremendous amounts of money on them.

Tell me PineyBob, why should I support an airline that has inconvenient schedules, an inconvenient website (don't dare hit the back button on USAirways.com), poor management and is using the BK system as its only method of competition? If USAirways was so great to its fliers, why aren't people flocking to use them?

 

[PITbull]

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On 3/2/2003 12:44:49 PM Hubturn wrote:

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On 3/1/2003 8:17:01 PM PITbull wrote:

We will not let management or ALPA attempt to freeze or manipulate other defined pensions, in order to appease mangement or ALPA. We will not permit them to take from the grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged.

If we do go to war, this mangement will "jump" at the chance to threaten a "forced Majeur" over the pilots heads. They won't be able to threaten liquidaton, But something far worse for many going forward.
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[/blockquote]
Pitbull,
I really take exception to the "grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged" line of thought. Somehow under great duress you were forced into your line of work instead of being something else? People choose their profession and the rewards it brings. Otherwise, the cardiologist gets paid the same as the school teacher. That was tried and it didn't work. It's called socialism. You might consider restating your objection to the company freezing or terminating your pension plan in other terms.
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Hubturn,

I think you should stop for a moment and reread what I wrote and read what you wrote. NOWHERE do I even imply that ALL should be paid the same. Since you decided to take it there....

Does it make sense to freeze pensions from a group that makes a median retirement of $18,000, in order to ensure that a group who make a median of $70,000- $100,000 retirement get to stay there?

When I say "less advangtaged" (speaking in terms of retirement)I mean for example a group that has not only a median of $18,000 for retirement, BUT WHO ALSO HAVE A SOCIAL SECURITY OFFSET!

No one said that ALL should make the same money as Labor, no where on this board does it say that in any post. Now, if you think all should have their pensions frozen so that ALL are treated the same, THEN LET'S GO AHEAD A SHARE THE PAY!

I am insulted that in the simplest terms YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!

P.S. By the way the Co. has never mentioned terminating other groups pensions, or freezing. That scenerio was only brought up by the ALPA MEC, as a solution. Page 35 of Alpa's motions

 

[Hubturn]

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On 3/1/2003 8:17:01 PM PITbull wrote:

We will not let management or ALPA attempt to freeze or manipulate other defined pensions, in order to appease mangement or ALPA. We will not permit them to take from the grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged.

If we do go to war, this mangement will "jump" at the chance to threaten a "forced Majeur" over the pilots heads. They won't be able to threaten liquidaton, But something far worse for many going forward.
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[/blockquote]
Pitbull,
I really take exception to the "grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged" line of thought. Somehow under great duress you were forced into your line of work instead of being something else? People choose their profession and the rewards it brings. Otherwise, the cardiologist gets paid the same as the school teacher. That was tried and it didn't work. It's called socialism. You might consider restating your objection to the company freezing or terminating your pension plan in other terms.

 

[blockquote]
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On 3/2/2003 10:07:25 AM Tim Nelson wrote:

Let's not blame ALPA and be angry at ALPA for winning its critical objection. They did what no other union was willing to do. And they probably did it because the ALPA membership made it clear to them that they wouldn't tolerate anythiing less than going to the Judge. For that I must applaud the ALPA membership.

I would expect ALPA will come out much better now than if they were to just, let's say, take it in the pants like others have.

Now the company must negotiate before the arbitration ruling or risk losing the arbitration ruling which would put increased power into ALPA's hands. Either way, the company will find a way to survive this particular issue.

And I'm not saying the Pilots won't finally get their pension terminated, rather, by fighting the injustice, they will end up with a greater retirement portion than what was originally offered by Corporate Greed.


Tim Nelson
IAMLC 1487
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[/blockquote]
A voice of reason!

 

[PITbull]

Gee Sav, Thanks

 

[savyinvestor]

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On 3/2/2003 12:57:31 PM PITbull wrote:

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On 3/2/2003 12:44:49 PM Hubturn wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 3/1/2003 8:17:01 PM PITbull wrote:

We will not let management or ALPA attempt to freeze or manipulate other defined pensions, in order to appease mangement or ALPA. We will not permit them to take from the grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged.

If we do go to war, this mangement will "jump" at the chance to threaten a "forced Majeur" over the pilots heads. They won't be able to threaten liquidaton, But something far worse for many going forward.
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[/blockquote]
Pitbull,
I really take exception to the "grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged" line of thought. Somehow under great duress you were forced into your line of work instead of being something else? People choose their profession and the rewards it brings. Otherwise, the cardiologist gets paid the same as the school teacher. That was tried and it didn't work. It's called socialism. You might consider restating your objection to the company freezing or terminating your pension plan in other terms.
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[/blockquote]

Hubturn,

I think you should stop for a moment and reread what I wrote and read what you wrote. NOWHERE do I even imply that ALL should be paid the same. Since you decided to take it there....

Does it make sense to freeze pensions from a group that makes a medium retirement of $18,000, in order to ensure that a group who make a median of $70,000- $100,000 retirement get to stay there?

When I say "less advangtaged" (speaking in terms of retirement)I mean for example a group that has not only a median of $18,000 for retirement, BUT WHO ALSO HAVE A SOCIAL SECURITY OFFSET!

No one said that ALL should make the same money as Labor, no where on this board does it say that in any post. Now, if you think all should have their pensions frozen so that ALL are treated the same, THEN LET'S GO AHEAD A SHARE THE PAY!

I am insulted that in the simplest terms YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!

P.S. By the way the Co. has never mentioned terminating other groups pensions, or freezing. That scenerio was only brought up by the ALPA MEC, as a solution. Page 35 of Alpa's motions



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[/blockquote]
You go Pitbull, At least one fellow poster is behind you all the way! I'm so sick of the standard ALPA rhetoric. They only see things thru their rose colored glasses and your right they don't get it. Savy

 

[ClueByFour]

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On 3/1/2003 919 PM PITbull wrote:

Then I believe the pilots have succeeded, and congratulations for the first part of their endeavor is in order!

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[/blockquote]

Right. Until they either force the company into a Chaper 7 situation or convince them to "fund the ALPA pension at the expense of all the other pensions."

 

[Ute]

Sit down and negotiate? Why? So they can continue the charade?

What makes you think they will abide by anything they negotiate this time? They have failed to fulfil any agreement they have signed thus far.

 

[DakotaHC8]

Simple reality PitBull.

Pilot positions require mininum qualifications, Mechanics have mininum qualifications, Dispatchers also have mininum qualifications... No other employees have such requirements. Any other position can be filled by anyone off of the street with (in comaprison to the above positions) minimal training.

Pilots, Mechanics, and dispatches are FAA certificated, no other employee position is.

In two weeks down to two days a pilot, mechanic, or dispatcher can be trained to perform the duties of any other employee position, the same cannot be said in reverse. It is VERY expensive and time consuming to replace a pilot, mechanic, or dispatcher while your own position does not hold the same security

It is this very leverage that allowed the pilots, mechanics, and dispatchers to negotiate better pay/benifits than your own PitBull. Not because they are better people, or that our organization can run without the efforts of all employees. Its not about fair, if it was about "fair" then all DB plans would be changed, not just the most expensive one.

 

[PITbull]

Dakota,

What's your point????


That I should give up my "defined pension" language because the only folks deserving of it is those employees that are "certified", and therefore difficult to replace? Is that why you went through that rendition or rant on certified employees that are more difficult to replace? Excuse me, it's called "supply and demand". Right now, I know for a fact there is an over supply of Pilots. OK. Don't want to insult folks on this board like I have just been insulted.

Little you know about f/a certification that is in the making as we speak. Our training, brother, is 5 weeks. If this co. could shrink that, it would in a "flash".

So, I didn't quite get your complete point!

 

[Tim Nelson]

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On 3/2/2003 12:51:12 PM PineyBob wrote:

Tim,
I always enjoy reading your posts as they a well reasoned and clearly you think before you type. A trait i wish I was better at.

First off I have never been a member of a union! Heck I have enough trouble with authority without having to answer to a union and a boss, so my knowledge of the inner workings of unions in general is limied to that of an observer. As PAX I am confused and concerned by recent events. Perhaps you can help shed some light.

In your educated opinion could you answer these questions. Others too please respond.

1. ALPA "won" yesterday! What exactly did they win? All I can see is that US is one step closer to a 7 filing.

2. What happens if ALPA wins the arbitration?

3. What happens if ALPA loses the arbitration?

4. Are the pensions of the other groups now really in jeopardy?

5. What impact does ALPA's "victory" have on the already sagging morale?

6. Are we closer to liquidation or farther away today?

Thanking all of you in advance for your replys. One favor that I ask is that you leave the venom towards any one group out of the replies. Just stick to the facts and your interpretation of them. I am just confused by the ruling and what it really means
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Thanks PineyBob, The folowing are my interpretations of the facts.

Certainly there are a variety of outcomes and your opinion is just as valid as mine and others on this board regarding these difficult questions. but the following is what I see.

1. To use a metaphor, before the ruling [it seems to me], US AIRWAYS wanted to strong arm and wish away the pension from the Pilots, by giving a loaded gun to a Judge to pull the trigger and jettison the Pilot Pension, as opposed to sitting down with the Pilots and coming to a reasonable negotiated settlement.
See question number 6 for your liquidation question.

2. To continue the metaphor, ALPA and management will each have a loaded gun pointed to the other.
The pension is a giant problem that needs to still be addressed. If ALPA stands on its presumed award and insists on no new pension plan then it will make for an extremely unstable situation.

3. If ALPA loses the arbitration then it will lose its pension plan. ALPA will not be free to strike in this situation.

4. No.

5. I Don't believe the Morale is really sagging like some have suggested. For that I must applaud the employees of US AIRWAYS.

6. I think we are one day closer to emerging from Bankruptcy. Liquidation and securing billions of dollars for future investment violate the logical principles of non-contradiction, i.e., they are contradicting terms.

I must give Credit to Siegel for arranging literally Billions of dollars in financing at a time when almost every other airline is having such a difficult time. It appears Siegel's plan is legitimated in the business world, as opposed to let's say United's which is having a heckuva time securing additional financing.

However, part of that plan involves a new settlement with ALPA.
IMO, the next 18 months are critical to the plan and there is little 'wiggle room' management can offer the Pilots. Do you agree?

But at the same time, there is much wiggle room at the back end of their 7 year contract. During the last 4 years of that contract, under Siegel's plan, this company has publicly projected hundreds of millions of dollars of net income. This is where I think ALPA, unlike the other unions, will score reasonably well and secure a fair and equitable settlement for its membership. Although it's anybody's guess, IMO, I think the wiggle room will represent itself in an enhanced retirement from the company's current position.

Tim Nelson
IAMLC 1487

 

[retread]

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On 3/2/2003 12:43:09 AM Pacemaker wrote:

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On 3/1/2003 10:42:44 PM dfw79 wrote:

The other 25,000 give or take will still do their job correctly, but I doubt they are going to give any slack to pilots anymore. You want coffee in the morning? There is a food court. You want to cut through counter/operations areas (in some airports) to avoid security? Sorry. Oh...your hotel crew van isn't here? There is a pay phone out by the counters.
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Dfw79 - And this would differ from business as usual exactly how?
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All we have to do is: STOP calling for a push crew,call for some parkers, call for our W/B, help the schedulers out, work over 15 hours, call for cleaners, call to get the lavs dumped, call to get catered. Pretty much quit doing everybody
elses job. Lets start tommorow.

 

[DakotaHC8]

Hey PitBull, You're the "advantaged vs. disadvantaged" person. I was only explaining why that is the case. It's not personal or a commentary upon you as a person. It is just cold hard reality.

I'm not going to waste your time with a debate upon who "deserves" what. If such things were decided upon merit, then teachers and firemen would make 6 figures. I too have sacrificed just as much as my mainline pilot counterparts, and am just as responsible for my own passengers, but make 1/3 the pay. Deserve has nothing to do with all of this, just plain negotiating leverage

My point was that the Airways pilots have much more leverage than other employee groups and that it why they are the "advantaged". Trust me, if the company feels that it can only achieve it's goals by giving the Airways pilots what they need, even to the disadvantage of other employee groups then management will do so. Jets for jobs comes to mind as an example.

The two edged sword for all of us is that the victory the pilots won forces the company to abide to the negotiating process and thus retains the integrity of all our CBA's. The bad part for us is that now those two parties have to negotiate out a resolution that will bring the organization out of BK. You can be sure that neither of those two groups will be eager to make additional concessions from their own wallets. So you figure where the cuts will come from.

Oh, and by the way, it IS common practice for a airline to get FAA approval for an expidited 2 week flght attendant training program before any possible work action.

Just reality PitBull, nothing personal

 

[PITbull]

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On 3/2/2003 745 PM DakotaHC8 wrote:

Hey PitBull, You're the "advantaged vs. disadvantaged" person. I was only explaining why that is the case. It's not personal or a commentary upon you as a person. It is just cold hard reality.

I'm not going to waste your time with a debate upon who "deserves" what. If such things were decided upon merit, then teachers and firemen would make 6 figures. I too have sacrificed just as much as my mainline pilot counterparts, and am just as responsible for my own passengers, but make 1/3 the pay. Deserve has nothing to do with all of this, just plain negotiating leverage

My point was that the Airways pilots have much more leverage than other employee groups and that it why they are the "advantaged". Trust me, if the company feels that it can only achieve it's goals by giving the Airways pilots what they need, even to the disadvantage of other employee groups then management will do so. Jets for jobs comes to mind as an example.

The two edged sword for all of us is that the victory the pilots won forces the company to abide to the negotiating process and thus retains the integrity of all our CBA's. The bad part for us is that now those two parties have to negotiate out a resolution that will bring the organization out of BK. You can be sure that neither of those two groups will be eager to make additional concessions from their own wallets. So you figure where the cuts will come from.

Oh, and by the way, it IS common practice for a airline to get FAA approval for an expidited 2 week flght attendant training program before any possible work action.

Just reality PitBull, nothing personal
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[/blockquote]

Hey reality guy,

Here's one for ya, WE ARE ALL REPLACABLE, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM! Glad to here you admit you're the "advantaged".
Some on here did not want to acknowledge that fact.

Let me make your previous post more clear....

Cardiologists who HAVE contracts with hospitals (not all physicians have a private practice), do not go to the hospital Board and administrators and say, "hey, if you have a problem with fulfilling my contract, just take it from the nurses. They are not as important as I have more education and thus sacrificed more to get where I am.

Those educated folks in those professions have more integrity than your ideas of what should or should not ocur.

And the two weeks from the FAA you speak of is EMERGENCY TRAINING ONLY! Our jobs entail much more than that; but I can see your limitations.

Put your leverage where your mouth is, and secure your pensions on your own, and leave the rest of the groups out of it.