Court approves termination, but it has to be done through collective bargaining - ALPA prevents term

[bigbusdrvr]

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On 3/2/2003 5:31:27 PM PITbull wrote:

Dakota,

What's your point????


That I should give up my "defined pension" language because the only folks deserving of it is those employees that are "certified", and therefore difficult to replace? Is that why you went through that rendition or rant on certified employees that are more difficult to replace? Excuse me, it's called "supply and demand". Right now, I know for a fact there is an over supply of Pilots. OK. Don't want to insult folks on this board like I have just been insulted.

Little you know about f/a certification that is in the making as we speak. Our training, brother, is 5 weeks. If this co. could shrink that, it would in a "flash".

So, I didn't quite get your complete point!

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I believe Crandall of American Airlines had FAA aproval to train replacement F/A's in the 80's down to 6 days!!!

 

[DakotaHC8]

Ohhh PitBull, so much emotion in your response, yet little to stand upon. For example you quoted:

>>>Cardiologists who HAVE contracts with hospitals (not all physicians have a private practice), do not go to the hospital Board and administrators and say, "hey, if you have a problem with fulfilling my contract, just take it from the nurses. They are not as important as I have more education and thus sacrificed more to get where I am.

 

Let me make your previous post more clear....

Cardiologists who HAVE contracts with hospitals (not all physicians have a private practice), do not go to the hospital Board and administrators and say, "hey, if you have a problem with fulfilling my contract, just take it from the nurses. They are not as important as I have more education and thus sacrificed more to get where I am.

Those educated folks in those professions have more integrity than your ideas of what should or should not ocur.
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[/blockquote]
My sister is the Director of Nurses in a very large hospital. Doctors can and do what you say they don't do.
She has had to deal with that very issue over and over again.

 

[DakotaHC8]

??????

Uhhh, ok whatever...

You were the one that brought up Doctors, I just quoted you.

You were the one that claimed doctors were different than pilots as they had too much "integrity" to pursue their own self interest, I just pointed out a recent example that proved you wrong.

So if YOU really have a desire to stick to the point, then reread the topic of this thread. Im talking about negotiating leverage, you are the one that threw out the "advantaged vs. disadvantaged" tripe.

??????

 

[PITbull]

Dakota,


Let me be straight forward with you. We are not talking about the medical physicians striking and what leverage they have. Pleeaaassseeeeeeeeee reread the posts you wrote and I wrote and stay on point.

I hope for the pilots sake that you are correct when you speak about leverage! They are going to need all the leverage they can get. This management will leave on the door steps of the pilots, their famous "trump card", Liquidation. And if this issue drags on further, there will be a new "trump" Forced Majeur.

By the way, I am a Registered Nurse, educated at the University of Pittsburgh.

PS. And how many times are you going to tell me not to take it "personal"? RD do I know you?

 

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On 3/2/2003 10:06:48 PM PITbull wrote:

[/blockquote]
My sister is the Director of Nurses in a very large hospital. Doctors can and do what you say they don't do.
She has had to deal with that very issue over and over again.

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[/blockquote]

Pup,

I'm sorry, what very issue do you think we are talking about here?



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[/blockquote]
did you not write this: Cardiologists who HAVE contracts with hospitals (not all physicians have a private practice), do not go to the hospital Board and administrators and say, "hey, if you have a problem with fulfilling my contract, just take it from the nurses. They are not as important as I have more education and thus sacrificed more to get where I am.

Those educated folks in those professions have more integrity than your ideas of what should or should not ocur.

If it was you who said hospital contracted doctors do not go to hospital boards to demand more money and that it does not come from nurses, you are dead wrong. If you did not mean that, then what do you mean?

 

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On 3/2/2003 10:17:58 PM PITbull wrote:

Pup,

I don't believe I could possibly get you to understand what I mean.

I think you have more important issues to worry about from all your posts then to worry about IAM and AFA type pensions.
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[/blockquote]
Ya know, you're right. I don't understand YOU either. Ho Hum.

 

[PITbull]

Hubturn,

It WAS ALPA's idea.

And I told you what the median pension for certain groups are...did not tell you mine. So you need not tell me yours.

And who said anything anywhere about DISadvantaged?

I said those who are LESS advantaged. Please reread.

 

[DakotaHC8]

PitBull,

I dont think you could get anyone to understand what you are trying to say. You have gone from confusing to nearly incoherent on your last few posts.

Just because you are overly emotional about the security of your pension does not give you a right to rant on without expecting a rubuttle.

If you want to dispute the truth of anything I said feel free to respond. But tossing out irrelevant or incorrect examples to argue your position is plain annoying. Acting like the "point" of such examples is "above" your antagonist is mearly fake bravado masking the error you made.

I advise that you follow your plan to just "slide" on before you make yourself look any worse PitBull.

 

[PITbull]

[/blockquote]
My sister is the Director of Nurses in a very large hospital. Doctors can and do what you say they don't do.
She has had to deal with that very issue over and over again.

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[/blockquote]

Pup,

I'm sorry, what very issue do you think we are talking about here?

 

[PITbull]

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On 3/2/2003 10:00:13 PM DakotaHC8 wrote:

??????

Uhhh, ok whatever...

You were the one that brought up Doctors, I just quoted you.

You were the one that claimed doctors were different than pilots as they had too much "integrity" to pursue their own self interest, I just pointed out a recent example that proved you wrong.

So if YOU really have a desire to stick to the point, then reread the topic of this thread. Im talking about negotiating leverage, you are the one that threw out the "advantaged vs. disadvantaged" tripe.

??????
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[/blockquote]

Dakota,

And you obviously agreed with the Less adv. vs. advantaged. After that you lost me.

I believe that you and FreindlyPup are talking the same language.

I will slide off this and leave you two to share thoughts.

 

[PITbull]

Pup,

I don't believe I could possibly get you to understand what I mean.

I think you have more important issues to worry about from all your posts then to worry about IAM and AFA type pensions.

 

[savyinvestor]

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On 3/2/2003 1009 PM PITbull wrote:

Hubturn,

It WAS ALPA's idea.

And I told you what the median pension for certain groups are...did not tell you mine. So you need not tell me yours.

And who said anything anywhere about DISadvantaged?

I said those who are LESS advantaged. Please reread.
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[/blockquote]
Sure was ALPA's idea. Perhaps that page 35 thing. Savy

 

[Hubturn]

Less advantaged. Noted.

 

[Hubturn]

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On 3/2/2003 12:57:31 PM PITbull wrote:

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On 3/2/2003 12:44:49 PM Hubturn wrote:

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On 3/1/2003 8:17:01 PM PITbull wrote:

We will not let management or ALPA attempt to freeze or manipulate other defined pensions, in order to appease mangement or ALPA. We will not permit them to take from the grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged.

If we do go to war, this mangement will "jump" at the chance to threaten a "forced Majeur" over the pilots heads. They won't be able to threaten liquidaton, But something far worse for many going forward.
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[/blockquote]
Pitbull,
I really take exception to the "grossly less advantaged, to give to the already advantaged" line of thought. Somehow under great duress you were forced into your line of work instead of being something else? People choose their profession and the rewards it brings. Otherwise, the cardiologist gets paid the same as the school teacher. That was tried and it didn't work. It's called socialism. You might consider restating your objection to the company freezing or terminating your pension plan in other terms.
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[/blockquote]

Hubturn,

I think you should stop for a moment and reread what I wrote and read what you wrote. NOWHERE do I even imply that ALL should be paid the same. Since you decided to take it there....

Does it make sense to freeze pensions from a group that makes a median retirement of $18,000, in order to ensure that a group who make a median of $70,000- $100,000 retirement get to stay there?

When I say "less advangtaged" (speaking in terms of retirement)I mean for example a group that has not only a median of $18,000 for retirement, BUT WHO ALSO HAVE A SOCIAL SECURITY OFFSET!

No one said that ALL should make the same money as Labor, no where on this board does it say that in any post. Now, if you think all should have their pensions frozen so that ALL are treated the same, THEN LET'S GO AHEAD A SHARE THE PAY!

I am insulted that in the simplest terms YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!

P.S. By the way the Co. has never mentioned terminating other groups pensions, or freezing. That scenerio was only brought up by the ALPA MEC, as a solution. Page 35 of Alpa's motions



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[/blockquote]
Pit
We can keep this going forever. Right now it looks like my measly $1000-$1200 a month PBGC pension is grossly "disadvantaged" when compared to the $18,000 a year average pension you speak of. The point that you don't get is that nobody on this property is "disadvantaged." Screwed over by management collectively and individually, maybe. Disadvantaged? - no. Did we all volunteer to work here? - yes. So while your statement that you will "not let management or ALPA.....appease management or ALPA" states your position, the reverse Robin Hood thing about advantaged and disadvantaged is, in my opinion, needlessly inflamatory and not germane to the issue. I have no ill will for you or your pension and I hope your reps are in there fighting tooth and nail for what's yours. I wonder if the company thought this freeze thing through, knew it would come up at the hearing, and now can use ALPA as a patsy saying, "It was their idea!"