CVG RIF?

[WorldTraveler]

My point is simply that for every argument that someone can make about how a union can protect some aspect of a job, I can show you multiple examples where a company has done exactly what it wants to do anyway, trashing the spirit and letter of the CBA.
I can also show you non-union airlines that have treated their employees better than those at airlines with unions.

I'm not going to argue that DL will always treat its non-union employees better than what they might receive with a union because it is impossible to predict the outcome either way.

It is highly noteworthy, though, that NW practically eliminated its unionized maintenance department and thus allowed DL to integrate the mechanics of both airlines without a union, the largest labor group to integrate without a union.

 

[tech2101]

It is highly noteworthy, though, that NW practically eliminated its unionized maintenance department and thus allowed DL to integrate the mechanics of both airlines without a union, the largest labor group to integrate without a union.

Rant on:

They did this by spending more money than what it would have taken to settle the dispute; and with the help of the AFL-CIO (ALPA, IAMAW), who thought that turning the other way while NWA decimated a craft union, would help in the long run.

It did not help the rank and file.

And, in my opinion, it set back the union movement in the airline industry 15 years.

Rant off:

I hope the laid off CVG employees are treated fairly by DAL. They should be given the opportunity to displace junior employees in DTW or MSP. It is the right thing to do.

We will see...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Rant on:

They did this by spending more money than what it would have taken to settle the dispute; and with the help of the AFL-CIO (ALPA, IAMAW), who thought that turning the other way while NWA decimated a craft union, would help in the long run.

It did not help the rank and file.

And, in my opinion, it set back the union movement in the airline industry 15 years.

Rant off:

I hope the laid off CVG employees are treated fairly by DAL. They should be given the opportunity to displace junior employees in DTW or MSP. It is the right thing to do.

We will see...

Would you like to name an airline management team anywhere in the world that works to enhance the strength of its unions? Of course, NW did what it could to decimate the union. And of course it weakened airline unions and would have whether NW had remained independent or not. NW's job was to reduce costs; they saw an opportunity to do it and believed they were making a "downpayment" on lower labor costs for the future.

Again, the irony is that the protecion that some saw in a labor union actually has paved the way for a non-union merged maintenance operation to be established at DL.... Because the DL mechanics did not want a union.

The best job protection is from a strong working relationship between labor and management. That might come with a labor union present but it also might come without one. WN is a highly unionized company but labor and mgmt understand each others' needs quite well and work to accommodate each other. Delta and ALPA have enjoyed better than average mgmt-union relations compared with other pilot unions - and it is no surprise that DL forged the first pre-merger pilot agreement in the history of US aviation.

Believing that a union will protect anything is foolish if there isn't a strong and cooperative working relationship between labor and mgmt.... and that is quite independent of whether a union is present or not.

And, yes, I hope the DL mechanics as well as all others in the industry - and yes our economy that are affected by downsizing - will land on their feet. But as one of the anchors of this forum says, "Obstacles make you clever." They really do.

 

[DalMD88]

Wow! Really? Is CVG the most senior of the hubs, or is SLC sort of the same?

The situation in CVG is there are no low time guys. There haven't been any open positions there in many years so no junior guys have been able to transfer in. SLC is similar. There the junior guys were pushed out in the last rif. Some cities are loaded with very junior AMTs. BOS and SEA have new hires as of the merger. LGA and JFK have been hiring for years and then there are those Aug 05 guys in MSP and DTW.

 

[Kev3188]

Again, the irony is that the protecion that some saw in a labor union actually has paved the way for a non-union merged maintenance operation to be established at DL.... Because the DL mechanics did not want a union.

It's actually more simple than that. No matter how much the DL AMT's may have wanted to be represented, doing so at this time would've meant falling under the imposed terms contained in the AMFA/NW agreement. No one in their right mind would have done so, as these terms literally are management's wish list contained in book form.

I would say the true barometer of how much/how little they want to be represented will come in a year, when they'll be able to petition for unionization again.

The best job protection is from a strong working relationship between labor and management.

True, but what happens when that is only a one-way street? NW historically has been much more interested in polemics as opposed to dialogue. This, of course, served to entrench the unions on the property.

That might come with a labor union present but it also might come without one. WN is a highly unionized company but labor and mgmt understand each others' needs quite well and work to accommodate each other.

Agreed. I don't see why that can't (shouldn't) be the model for all unions at all carriers. For me personally, I have no problem exchanging efficiency for industry leading-not just standard- pay/benefits. Obviously, some of that is out of labor's hands (flight shcedules, etc.), but still...

Delta and ALPA have enjoyed better than average mgmt-union relations compared with other pilot unions - and it is no surprise that DL forged the first pre-merger pilot agreement in the history of US aviation.

So why is it so far fetched that the IAM & AFA couldn't enjoy the same cooperative situation that ALPA & PAFCA currently have? I see no reason why it couldn't be.

As for the pre-merger agreement, well, both were ALPA, so it may have been easier than any other group, simply because of the commonality (no union campaign, etc.). On top of that, $$$ talks. I imagine I'd be pretty "agreeable" too, if I received the same sort of pay out that the pilot corps did.

And, yes, I hope the DL mechanics as well as all others in the industry - and yes our economy that are affected by downsizing - will land on their feet. But as one of the anchors of this forum says, "Obstacles make you clever." They really do.

LOL. Fantastic!

The situation in CVG is there are no low time guys. There haven't been any open positions there in many years so no junior guys have been able to transfer in. SLC is similar. There the junior guys were pushed out in the last rif. Some cities are loaded with very junior AMTs. BOS and SEA have new hires as of the merger. LGA and JFK have been hiring for years and then there are those Aug 05 guys in MSP and DTW.

Excellent info; thank you!

 

[WorldTraveler]

The true barometer of DL employee sentiment is always whether they vote for a union or not. They have always had that right and, except for the pilots and dispatchers, have chosen not to exercise it.

The biggest stick DL employees have is the ONGOING threat that they could unionize if they don't like how management is treating them. The overwhelming evidence is that DL employees have been quite comfortable without unions.

Yes, ALPA did get a sweet deal to settle but remember that there is still alot being given up on both sides; I might argue that the larger DALPA unit probably had more to lose since it was a given from the beginning that NW's bigger int'l a/c would end up in ATL and DL's smaller aircraft would end up in DTW or MSP. DL has also made no bones about the fact that the MD80 and 90 is ideal for flying from MSP to both coasts so the 320s will likely also be migrating south. For DL pilots, all this equipment shuffling adds a significant risk of losing what they most covet - the biggest airplane and the best schedule.

While WN and its labor unions have enjoyed a pretty good relationship, remember that WN is a much younger airline than any of the network airlines. They just had their first employee reach full retirement age a couple years ago. Therefore, they haven't dealt with the tough issues that the network airlines have. Same thing can be said for B6. An apples to apples comparison would be between network airlines when looking at NW's labor relations.

You do realize that when the "obstacles" phrase is googled, your posts come up before Ho Chi Minh's, don't you? Perhaps you have overcome the true intentions of the little man?

 

[Dignity]

couldn't enjoy the same cooperative situation that ALPA & PAFCA currently have? I see no reason why it couldn't be.

there is really no reason why it could not be.. however there are a few issues that seem to present themselves time and time again..


*ego's within the union

*infighting between those in the union seeking power positions

*those who have focused more on the emotional rather than the logical points that are needing to be accomplished and addressed, which results or creates a perception of ineffectiveness (seniority integration lawsuits, ext.)

*those who still have an axe to grind for the fact some still focus on 'what they did' or 'how dare they' and harbor those feeling and carry those thoughts even today.

*one side focusing on unionization while the other is focusing on non-unionization and then fighting amongst themselves. (sometimes people making false claims, allegations, hearsay or spreading gossip, to make one side look bad while thinking it makes them look good when in fact.. it will make all sides appear foolish)

*those who feel solely entitled to positions in the union (they make sure they keep those positions no matter what)

*when a differing opinion arises that may be completely different from others (even though it is to be a democracy) some will ostracize someone even if that individual is in support of the union overall.

*those who are elected into union positions and throw a wrench in the process for no other reason but to create problems. (usually they are voted out, sometimes not)



(these are just a few problems why the group cannot maintain a more positive relationship, some cannot even get along with each other within the same group or it appears that way..)


the idea of a union is not a bad thing, as a matter of fact in poor economic times having something in writing is probably very important.

it is those 'us vs them' ideas and mentalities.. that drive a wedge in between the co-workers (the group) and ultimately the workers and the company that creates the real problem.

infighting,

it will screw everything up every single time.

who ends up suffering?

that would be the brand name and sadly the group.

the worst part about all of this is simply it does not take a lot of people to accomplish making a very bad impression.. that can last a lot longer than some may think.

 

[700UW]

Explain WN then to us.

Highest percentage of unionized employees, highest paid in the industry and the most profitable over the past 30 years.

SWAPA, TWU, IAM and AMFA.

 

[Dignity]

WN is an excellent example when everyone is on the same page working together as a team.
even though highly unionized, consistent over all profits have been made.. excellent leadership ability on all sides is present (company and union)
the whole time staying focused to customer service.

its not just about being highly unionized, its really about working together for a common goal..

success for all.

a textbook example of how to do it right.

(some should pay attention to their example)

 

[WorldTraveler]

but again, WN worship only goes so far.

They do not operate the same type of airline the network carriers do. Other carriers have duplicated what WN does with similar success - but they can't take you around the world. Those who tout WN might do well to consider that WN doesn't cover much of the world and a pretty small part of the US in comparison to network carriers.

And, once again, the network carriers would be doing alot better if they didn't have tens of thousands of employees each drawing retirement. All that longevity that you all crave comes at a price. WN has been able to grow fast enough that it doesn't have near as many high seniority employees.

 

[Delta Technician]

You are most likely correct. But when he says there is no job security, that is a lie.

I was laid off several times and was able to exercise my seniority to a different location because of my union negotiated agreement. Not because NWA wanted me to go where I chose. I know for a fact that many layoffs were averted because of that clause. A company has to think twice before they lay off when they have to honor seniority and bumping rights because of the loss of productivity when it occurs. Not to mention the lowering of morale when one has to uproot a family or commute.

Before you call someone a liar you need to think about the person with the lowest seniority and not just yourself. That person has no job security. Unions...such close brothers and sisters. I gues the NWA mechanics had job security.

 

[Dignity]

Those who tout WN might do well to consider that WN doesn't cover much of the world and a pretty small part of the US in comparison to network carriers.

Southwest senior management "gets it" they understand how important high moral and teamwork pays off for all,

it is also a great airline with a lot of untapped potential..

(many can recognize and acknowledge a very good thing)

regarding DAL,

do not lose core values, the tradition established must be carried through in order to not only respect the name going forward.. but also secure a place in aviation as a leader.

because there is another airline that can fit the bill

and

never underestimate the competition.

(a "pretty small part" today can cover it all down the road)

 

[jimntx]

Those who tout WN might do well to consider that WN doesn't cover much of the world and a pretty small part of the US in comparison to network carriers.

And, once again, the network carriers would be doing alot better if they didn't have tens of thousands of employees each drawing retirement. All that longevity that you all crave comes at a price. WN has been able to grow fast enough that it doesn't have near as many high seniority employees.

Well, to start with WN flies to 36 of the 50 states. Granted they don't serve secondary and tertiary stations like Allentown, PA or Bogalusa, La, but AA, DL, and UA don't either--except with limited rj service--mostly provided by outside airlines flying under AA, DL, or UA colors. In fact, I doubt any of us provide very much service to any non-WN state other than Georgia (obviously), South Carolina, and New Jersey. And, with New Jersey, how many of us serve any part of that state other than EWR? And, if EWR were downstate instead of across the Hudson from NYC, how much service do you think EWR would get from the majors?

Your statement about retirees doesn't make any sense to me. For those of us who work for airlines that still have defined benefit plans, when we retire, an annuity which pays the monthly benefit is purchased from the retirement reserves money--which incidentally was paid by the company long before the retirement event. No money comes out of current operating revenue. If the employee has a company-match 401K, the company actually saves money when the employee retires because they don't have to pay the matching funds anymore. So, I fail to see how the number of retirees would affect our ability to grow.

Also, WN is the most highly unionized airline in the U.S. All the union groups have a given seniority at which the employee tops out on the pay scale, and gets no further raises unless a new contract increases the top of scale. For flight attendants, they reach top of scale at 12 years. A GREAT many of WN's flight attendants are at top of scale, as are a majority of their pilots, mechanics, gate agents. By the way, did I mention that WN flight attendants are the highest paid domestic flight attendants in the U.S. Where is the "advantage" coming from?

 

[Airlinelifer]

Well, to start with WN flies to 36 of the 50 states. Granted they don't serve secondary and tertiary stations like Allentown, PA or Bogalusa, La, but AA, DL, and UA don't either--except with limited rj service--mostly provided by outside airlines flying under AA, DL, or UA colors. In fact, I doubt any of us provide very much service to any non-WN state other than Georgia (obviously), South Carolina, and New Jersey. And, with New Jersey, how many of us serve any part of that state other than EWR? And, if EWR were downstate instead of across the Hudson from NYC, how much service do you think EWR would get from the majors?

Your statement about retirees doesn't make any sense to me. For those of us who work for airlines that still have defined benefit plans, when we retire, an annuity which pays the monthly benefit is purchased from the retirement reserves money--which incidentally was paid by the company long before the retirement event. No money comes out of current operating revenue. If the employee has a company-match 401K, the company actually saves money when the employee retires because they don't have to pay the matching funds anymore. So, I fail to see how the number of retirees would affect our ability to grow.

Also, WN is the most highly unionized airline in the U.S. All the union groups have a given seniority at which the employee tops out on the pay scale, and gets no further raises unless a new contract increases the top of scale. For flight attendants, they reach top of scale at 12 years. A GREAT many of WN's flight attendants are at top of scale, as are a majority of their pilots, mechanics, gate agents. By the way, did I mention that WN flight attendants are the highest paid domestic flight attendants in the U.S. Where is the "advantage" coming from?

WN probably has a streamlined management team, not some bloated, multi-level scaming bunch of paper pushers they have at DL.

 

[Whipmaster]

View attachment 8524Does anyone have the info on the mechanics being RIF'd out of CVG? Are they offering them positions somewhere else in the system?

whats the latest? its been real quiet on this subject. Please lets not turn this into a union argument, there are other posts that have sufficiently covered this subject.