day one of two day negotiations anybody have a clue whats going on?

[odie01]

AA held us hostage for 9 years, now they want us to settle asap so they can exit bankruptcy. It's our turn to hold out for industry standard wages and benefits. We will see if the twu tips our King when we still have our queen.

 

[Buck]

Sideboard: I heard tonight that Honda Marina in Miami,FL. Is paying $42/he to assemble boat motors.

 

[TWU informer]

Sideboard: I heard tonight that Honda Marina in Miami,FL. Is paying $42/he to assemble boat motors.

Hell there is documented proof that Industrial Unions pay Organizers $100K+ plus per year to lie, twist facts, and do anything possible to prevent Union Members from voting for their representation of choice.

Union Organizers at one time tried to organize the un-organized workers.
These days they are professionals at nothing more than attempting to stop democratic elections.

How would you like to enjoy so-called "union" representation from either group that has to pay multiple $100K per year organizers to do everything possible to prevent a union member from getting a ballot? Must be a really great deal? When Corporations do the same thing they scream like a bloodied hound, and run to the Government for assistance.

 

[aapitbull]

From what I hear their know talking about 13% over 6 years adjustment to industry average in the middle like the pilots as well as our medical is like the pilots thet now say we will work on anything the APA flys still no scope clause and no stock in the new company also any Mechanic going back into a shop will only lose Lic pay will not go to OSM wage scale. will start again next week. The thing is still very fluid so treat this with a grain of salt.

 

[Tex-Mech]

Hell there is documented proof that Industrial Unions pay Organizers $100K+ plus per year to lie, twist facts, and do anything possible to prevent Union Members from voting for their representation of choice.

$100k a year to be an organizer, but the mechanic that fixes the plane to fly their arse around the country only gets $65k. The organizer gets 100% paid medical benefits, 12 holidays a year, one can only guess the amount of vacation time, a no-max credit card, and a great pension. What great skills does an organizer have that a mechanic doesn't have? Why the huge pay and benefit disparity for the unskilled organizer? Do they get gain sharing and letters of agreement to be the best at their job in their contract? How can I apply for this job?

 

[Bob Owens]

When James C Little signed off on our current agreement in 2003 "without further ratification", I believe Local 562 challenged that pratice in court and the Judge ruled that the TWU International President can do that..... brother

Maybe when Bob Owens is no longer gagged then he can give more specific details as he was personally invovled and I am only going by memory attached to a 50 year plus old brain.

The Judge ruled that since the deal was ratified and the Profit Sharing was an enhancement, and not a major change, and that there was a long history of the Union making changes to the contract (through LOAs etc) that was ratified that it did not violate the language in the Constitution. The fact that the members ratified it sealed our fate. Too bad we didnt have Youtube back then!

 

[Bob Owens]

Answer....yes.

Not so sure about that. Now its out that the company wants us to work under conditions that are worse than any other carrier not to save the company and our jobs but so that AA can make $3 billion a year in profits, thats more than most of AAs competitors-Combined

 

[FWAAA]

Not so sure about that. Now its out that the company wants us to work under conditions that are worse than any other carrier not to save the company and our jobs but so that AA can make $3 billion a year in profits, thats more than most of AAs competitors-Combined

You're still fixated on that number that you made up? AA hasn't advanced any plan to make $3 billion in annual profits.

Think about it a minute. If there was any reality behind your $3 billion profit figure, don't you think that Ted Reed or Doug Parker or the APA or APFA or someone/anyone else would be harping about it in the press, making fun of Tom Horton? If Horton actually planned for AA to earn $3 billion a year with the restructuring plan thus far, I'd be making fun of him.

AA is going to reduce total wage expenses by just over $1 billion (down from $1.25 billion), bring in an additional $1 billion or so in annual revenue and somehow that magically transforms to $3 billion in profits (instead of the $1 billion of annual losses)? Seriously?

$3 billion a year in profits would require an EBITDAR of approximately 25% of revenue (at this year's expected revenue of approx $25 billion). Do you think AA is planning on a 25% EBITDAR ratio? The entire financial community would be laughing their asses off at Horton if your number was accurate.

Yes, I realize that you heard a lawyer for the company misspeak about the amount of profit sharing in a hearing and you backed into that $3 billion profit fantasy using "Bob Owens math." Wonder why nobody else has picked up on it? There's only one person opining that AA plans to earn $3 billion a year, and it's you. If you were even in the ballpark, I wonder why nobody else is talking about $3 billion in annual profits?

 

[Bob Owens]

You're still fixated on that number that you made up? AA hasn't advanced any plan to make $3 billion in annual profits.

Think about it a minute. If there was any reality behind your $3 billion profit figure, don't you think that Ted Reed or Doug Parker or the APA or APFA or someone/anyone else would be harping about it in the press, making fun of Tom Horton? If Horton actually planned for AA to earn $3 billion a year with the restructuring plan thus far, I'd be making fun of him.

AA is going to reduce total wage expenses by just over $1 billion (down from $1.25 billion), bring in an additional $1 billion or so in annual revenue and somehow that magically transforms to $3 billion in profits (instead of the $1 billion of annual losses)? Seriously?

$3 billion a year in profits would require an EBITDAR of approximately 25% of revenue (at this year's expected revenue of approx $25 billion). Do you think AA is planning on a 25% EBITDAR ratio? The entire financial community would be laughing their asses off at Horton if your number was accurate.

Yes, I realize that you heard a lawyer for the company misspeak about the amount of profit sharing in a hearing and you backed into that $3 billion profit fantasy using "Bob Owens math." Wonder why nobody else has picked up on it? There's only one person opining that AA plans to earn $3 billion a year, and it's you. If you were even in the ballpark, I wonder why nobody else is talking about $3 billion in annual profits?

Because of the people who were in the courtroom I'm the only one that posts on the Internet and the others who were told directly signed Confidentiality agreements. I was not given that info, thats why the company specifically requested that I leave the hearing when those figures were discussed.

Maybe you are right,maybe the $3 billion, which I got from the fact their lawyer said that the unions, making up 80% of the plan participants, would be getting $360 million as their share of Profit Sharing (that comes out to $2.88 billion) is wrong because $25 billion x 17%(the EBITDAR that was cited several times in court) actually equals $4.25 billion, even better!! That means they would still make $3billion in profits without touching any labor agreements. Maybe the financial community would be laughing their asses off, maybe thats why they keep it secret? As far as whether or not their plan is achievable is not my concern, they have to sell it to the Creditors, but I'm not willing to committ to 6 more years of bottom compensation either way.

You say that the Financial community would lagh their asses off at such an lofty return however several of the companies witnesess from the Financial Community testified that they considered at least 20% to be what is needed for an airline to be healthy enough to withstand the various uncertainties that affect airlines.

 

[Realityck]

I heard tonight that Honda Marina in Miami,FL. Is paying $42/he to assemble boat motors

That's probably true, but then will they have enough jobs to take care of all our displaced AMTs once the dust settles?

This brings to mind AMFA's old battle cry about Auto Mechanics earning more than $100,000 a year. That was also true. Unfortunately, even today there are still only a limited number of such jobs available at Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Aston Martin Dealerships.

 

[FWAAA]

Because of the people who were in the courtroom I'm the only one that posts on the Internet and the others who were told directly signed Confidentiality agreements. I was not given that info, thats why the company specifically requested that I leave the hearing when those figures were discussed.

Maybe you are right,maybe the $3 billion, which I got from the fact their lawyer said that the unions, making up 80% of the plan participants, would be getting $360 million as their share of Profit Sharing (that comes out to $2.88 billion) is wrong because $25 billion x 17%(the EBITDAR that was cited several times in court) actually equals 4.25 billion, even better!! That means they would still make $3billion in profits without touching any labor agreements. Maybe the financial community would be laughing their asses off, maybe thats why they keep it secret? As far as whether or not their plan is achievable is not my concern, they have to sell it to the Creditors, but I'm not willing to committ to 6 more years of bottom compensation either way.

EBITDAR is not annual profit. EBITDAR is Earnings Before (the subtraction of) Interest expense, Taxes, Depreciation, Amortization and Rents (and Restructuring costs). For AMR, those items are slightly more than $3 billion a year. $25 billion in revenue multiplied by 17% (the hoped-for EBITDAR target) equals $4.25 billion in EBITDAR. Subtract a little more than $3 billion in ITDAR items and you arrive at $1 billion, the hoped-for annual profits, not $3 billion.

I realize that your workgroup is underpaid and that you deserve more money, but AA isn't seeking $3 billion in annual profits. Instead, it wants to earn about $1 billion a year on $25 billion of revenue.

 

[Bob Owens]

EBITDAR is not annual profit. EBITDAR is Earnings Before (the subtraction of) Interest expense, Taxes, Depreciation, Amortization and Rents. For AMR, those items are slightly more than $3 billion a year. $25 billion in revenue multiplied by 17% (the hoped-for EBITDAR target) equals $4.25 billion in EBITDAR. Subtract a little more than $3 billion in ITDAR and you arrive at $1 billion, the hoped-for annual profits, not $3 billion.

I realize that your workgroup is underpaid and that you deserve more money, but AA isn't seeking $3 billion in annual profits. Instead, it wants to earn about $1 billion a year on $25 billion of revenue.

Yes but you conviently forget that the "ITDAR" will no longer be $3billion because in BK they will shed things that they should have shed back in 2003 . The company bragged about that as well in court, citing how even though their non-labor costs were "in line" now that they would be much lower post BK.

Their lawyer came up with the $360million profit sharing for the unions, even if he mis-spoke, and that was the total for all participants its still well over $2billion.

 

[FWAAA]

Yes but you conviently forget that the "ITDAR" will no longer be $3billion because in BK they will shed things that they should have shed back in 2003 . The company bragged about that as well in court, citing how even though their non-labor costs were "in line" now that they would be much lower post BK.

I realize that, like the rent on four F100s and some vacant terminal space plus some other misc reductions. Interest expense on discharged debt and rent on older planes will be reduced as well. Counterbalancing those reductions, however, will be a huge increase in aircraft rent from the 500+ new airplanes on the way in the next 10 years.

No matter how you slice it, there's not a chance in hell that AMR would earn $3 billion a year with its current plan unless fuel falls to $1/gal and stays there or if suddenly, yields rise to 20 cents per seat mile. UA and DL both had great years last year and each reported earnings of under $1 billion each last year, and they both had about 50% more revenue than did AMR.

In 2011, AMR's non-labor costs were actually less than the non-labor costs at US. Of course, that is probably due to the large outsourced maintenance expenses at US not paid by AA (as you have posted before, that contributes to AA's higher labor costs and lower non-labor costs). If not for its very low wage rates (primarily for pilots and FAs), US would be a high-cost airline.

 

[Bob Owens]

I realize that, like the rent on four F100s and some vacant terminal space plus some other misc reductions. Interest expense on discharged debt and rent on older planes will be reduced as well. Counterbalancing those reductions, however, will be a huge increase in aircraft rent from the 500+ new airplanes on the way in the next 10 years.

No matter how you slice it, there's not a chance in hell that AMR would earn $3 billion a year with its current plan unless fuel falls to $1/gal and stays there or if suddenly, yields rise to 20 cents per seat mile. UA and DL both had great years last year and each reported earnings of under $1 billion each last year, and they both had about 50% more revenue than did AMR.

In 2011, AMR's non-labor costs were actually less than the non-labor costs at US. Of course, that is probably due to the large outsourced maintenance expenses at US not paid by AA (as you have posted before, that contributes to AA's higher labor costs and lower non-labor costs). If not for its very low wage rates (primarily for pilots and FAs), US would be a high-cost airline.

Look you can go ahead and dispute AA's post bk or present business plan, that really does not concern me, it doesnt appear to concern the court or the creditors either but it gives us good cause to reject the companys ask, pick your reason, either they dont need it or their plan is not likely to succeed.

 

[AAmechanic]

From what I hear their know talking about 13% over 6 years adjustment to industry average in the middle like the pilots as well as our medical is like the pilots thet now say we will work on anything the APA flys still no scope clause and no stock in the new company also any Mechanic going back into a shop will only lose Lic pay will not go to OSM wage scale. will start again next week. The thing is still very fluid so treat this with a grain of salt.

I guess they are still not talking about adding holidays? That just amazes me, especially after reading this statement on Q & A's for Management and Support Staff on Jetnet:

Added 5/31/2012 Q. Are there any planned changes to the 10 paid holidays for the Management/Support Staff groups similar to the ARP group's reduction from 10 to five paid holidays?
No. American does not plan to make changes to paid holidays for the Management/Support Staff workgroup. Upon reviewing all possible restructuring changes, it was determined that changes to holidays for this group would not result in significant savings. Beyond the financial considerations, the industry average is 8-10 holidays.

And American Airlines management wonders why there is labor tension!