Debates
- Thread starter RDU Jetblast
- Start date
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
here is my point: The idea that tax cuts for the rich is good for the economy is B.S.
It didn't work for Reagan,
It worked for Clinton thanks to Bush 1 who reneged on his promise of no new taxes,
It didnt work for bush 2 (if you want to fight wars, you will automatically grow government).
but if you want to grow government to fight wars after you gave the govt a pay cut, the govt has to borrow even more money.
The wealthy managed no matter who is in office or what the tax policy was/is. I have not seen any great unemployment numbers resulting from tax cuts given to the wealthy some eight years ago. when will they happen? they are still in effect.
Why do you you care if they get taxed more? I dont. their tax cuts have not benefitted me one bit. I dont hear them saying hey! how about cutting taxes for the midle class by half so they can put cash into the economy!
I dont argue that govt is inefficient and too big. I do argue that everyone should shoulder the burden of our govt equally. How you control it, manage it and shrink it can be argued but until then, I believe the price of being American should shared equally.
It didn't work for Reagan,
It worked for Clinton thanks to Bush 1 who reneged on his promise of no new taxes,
It didnt work for bush 2 (if you want to fight wars, you will automatically grow government).
but if you want to grow government to fight wars after you gave the govt a pay cut, the govt has to borrow even more money.
The wealthy managed no matter who is in office or what the tax policy was/is. I have not seen any great unemployment numbers resulting from tax cuts given to the wealthy some eight years ago. when will they happen? they are still in effect.
Why do you you care if they get taxed more? I dont. their tax cuts have not benefitted me one bit. I dont hear them saying hey! how about cutting taxes for the midle class by half so they can put cash into the economy!
I dont argue that govt is inefficient and too big. I do argue that everyone should shoulder the burden of our govt equally. How you control it, manage it and shrink it can be argued but until then, I believe the price of being American should shared equally.
Glenn Quagmire
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2012
- Messages
- 4,809
- Reaction score
- 4,343
Calling you clueless is a compliment at this point.
So what makes you the empirical wizard on all things regarding economics.
You should check, the Euro is worth more.....LOL
SparrowHawk
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2009
- Messages
- 7,824
- Reaction score
- 2,707
Equally shared?? Hmmm according to Romney 47% of us pay no tax and his rate based on his return shows around 13.9%
I just looked at my pay stub abd roughly 12.5& of my pay is withheld. So now you jump in and say "But Bob, that includes Social Security, Medicare and stae taxes, you pay no income tax"
To which I reply, "Bullshit, if those deductions aren't taxes then they would be called "Donations" and I would have the ability to opt out" Do I have the ability to opt out? No I don't so I'm being taxes at roughly the same rate as Romney which to me is fair.
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,375
What's interesting is considering the goal of taxes is to pay for government services provided for the common good, and some of the contradictions which go into liberal arguments for punishing taxing the rich more than "the working man".
Arguably, the amount of services consumed by individual are disproportionate to one's wealth....
Guys like Buffett, Gates, Kerry, and Romney... They don't need social security, Medicare... They have private security and don't need the police. Their kids often go to private schools and universities without the need for grants, aid, or loans, so the school system isn't burdened by them. I doubt they use public transportation...
So why are they obligated to pay more? Is the military guarding them more than anyone else? Do they have special government privileges that we're not aware of? Access to secret bunkers in Missouri to protect them from the asteroid?Pass privileges on the Space Shuttle?
What exactly is fair about having to pay for thousands of times more than what you actually consume?
I know this will probably give Tree fits, but the ideal that those who are blessed with more have a moral (not legal) obligation to give freely (as opposed to having it taken by law or force, for those who didn't get the first disclaimer) ....
It's based on Judeo-Christian teachings.
Why are we basing the legal obligation for taxation on "fables and myths" when there's supposed to be an absence of religion in how laws are passed?
If unions like the SEIU applied the same concept as our tax structure, those at the bottom of the seniority list would pay nothing in dues, and those at the top (i.e. the union officials) would wind up carrying the brunt of the cost of running the union.
Instead, they have a "flat tax" based on hourly rates. Go figure...
Arguably, the amount of services consumed by individual are disproportionate to one's wealth....
Guys like Buffett, Gates, Kerry, and Romney... They don't need social security, Medicare... They have private security and don't need the police. Their kids often go to private schools and universities without the need for grants, aid, or loans, so the school system isn't burdened by them. I doubt they use public transportation...
So why are they obligated to pay more? Is the military guarding them more than anyone else? Do they have special government privileges that we're not aware of? Access to secret bunkers in Missouri to protect them from the asteroid?
What exactly is fair about having to pay for thousands of times more than what you actually consume?
I know this will probably give Tree fits, but the ideal that those who are blessed with more have a moral (not legal) obligation to give freely (as opposed to having it taken by law or force, for those who didn't get the first disclaimer) ....
It's based on Judeo-Christian teachings.
Why are we basing the legal obligation for taxation on "fables and myths" when there's supposed to be an absence of religion in how laws are passed?
If unions like the SEIU applied the same concept as our tax structure, those at the bottom of the seniority list would pay nothing in dues, and those at the top (i.e. the union officials) would wind up carrying the brunt of the cost of running the union.
Instead, they have a "flat tax" based on hourly rates. Go figure...
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
Ummm, pssst, hey sparrowhawk? Can you please send me your tax person's contact info?
I just looked at my year to date income and excluding state, local, taxes, I have paid 22.3% to federal medicare and ss.
Either i need to become a republican or you REALLY need to stop bitching about taxes!
I just looked at my year to date income and excluding state, local, taxes, I have paid 22.3% to federal medicare and ss.
Either i need to become a republican or you REALLY need to stop bitching about taxes!
Keroseneuser
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2011
- Messages
- 860
- Reaction score
- 645
Difference should be coming from your stated withholding based on your number of dependants etc. It is hard to figure your exact tax rate off a paystub. The final tax rate will only be fully realized at the end of the year after you do your deductions etc off w2's. As i am sure you know you can withhold much more than you owe to ensure a refund at end of year instead of a payment. I would need to dig out a tax book to make sure that also applies to medicare and SS but I think it does as well.
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
i realize that. it is just me and my wife. Our witholding is 1.
but think about it, single people pay more than my wife and I do.
If we can live a comfortable life with a 22% "loss"(taxes) I believe people making 250k+ can too.
For the record, My wife and I make 160k. I am hourly and work lots of OT.
Being a liberal dem, I do believe a poor shmuck with five kids should pay less than his/her fiscal
peer. But come on, 13%? For someone who make 40% more than we do?
I call BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. it is saturday and i am on my third gin &tonic. Please forgive typ-os
but think about it, single people pay more than my wife and I do.
If we can live a comfortable life with a 22% "loss"(taxes) I believe people making 250k+ can too.
For the record, My wife and I make 160k. I am hourly and work lots of OT.
Being a liberal dem, I do believe a poor shmuck with five kids should pay less than his/her fiscal
peer. But come on, 13%? For someone who make 40% more than we do?
I call BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. it is saturday and i am on my third gin &tonic. Please forgive typ-os
Keroseneuser
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2011
- Messages
- 860
- Reaction score
- 645
Ouch, with your income if Obama is re-elected and is in the position to not have to get re-elected again I truly don't think you are going to enjoy having that high level income you do. you are not middle class to Obama. remember how he defines things "millionares and billionare" translates to those making 250k a year. Your 160k a year clearly puts you in to Obamas "Wealthy" class.........they are the targets in presidential salvo number 2.
Have you read his books and writings? With your 160k a year your family currently earns over 3 times the average family income in the US. You may want to do a bit of reading prior to november 6th because you clearly fall into the "evil rich" catagory he is talking about.
Put it another way, you make 110k more than the average family in the us, but you are only 90k less than Obama's "millionares and billionares".........Just who do you think the next target is after he gets the 250k crowd?
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
I'll worry about that when he gets to them. I soppose I can refuse the OT and earn 3ok less but ,oh wait, i am not unionized and work in a right to work state. I guess I must remain a slave to my masters and also wait to see what happens after O get the 250 crowd.
Dont turn this into an argument about the boogey man. grow some balls. I am not afraid. Why are you?
Dont turn this into an argument about the boogey man. grow some balls. I am not afraid. Why are you?
Keroseneuser
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2011
- Messages
- 860
- Reaction score
- 645
Eh don't worry about it. O gets his way and before long you will be doing all that overtime to take home 80k less.
No matter what the tax rate is Obama will spend it all plus a bunch. Obama is on record many many times saying he wants redistribution of the wealth. Want to see the likely result of this policy? Look at france, a nation that many of Obama's ideas and policies closley emulate.
Income tax 2012 france:
26,420 euros ($34,371 US) to 70830 euros ($92,146 US) 30% tax rate.
70,830 Euros and above 41% tax rate. with additional percentage increases at 250k (sound familier?) and 500k
For 2013 they just passed a 75% tax rate for income over 1 million. So i am guessing 2014 will have hits for the lower 2012 rates as soon as they piss away the 75% they get.
For you such a tax rate will pop you for 65k + a year. I am guessing that for someone of your upper income he has something around 50% in mind by the end of the next 4 years.
So yes Obamas stated redistribution of wealth does scare me because I don't want to work my butt off to support a crowd that dropped out of school, smokes crack, guzzles beer, or stays toked up on weed all day or is of the variety that you see wearing hankies on their face flashing gang signs speaking some urban slang that is barely recognizable as english that has zero intention of looking for or taking a job.
RDU Jetblast
Veteran
I have spent a lot of time in Appalacia and have been to Bike Week. . I know of the people you speak. Damn meth heads.
But guess what, they dont know how to fill out paperwork. They dont have adresses because they dont pay rent. Chances are most of these people are not on welfare. It is not as big a deal as you make it out to be.
They may be drug dealing thieves but guess else, their IQs are generally pretty low. Thats why they drop out of school. They are stupid people.
As for france, i have been there a dozen times, as recently as six months ago. I dont hear them whining. Like Americans, they have their problems but are generally a happy people. The numbers you listed dont seem to bother them. I question your understanding of there tax code. I think your numbers would have come up in conversation over a lunch time wine break.
