Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

We just got an email from the NAC that says the same thing about the NIC. I made statements before that were in error in that regard. The MOU is "NIC Neutral". There is a ton of bad information going around and the email dealt with three of the most contentious issues: COC, AA equity share and the NIC. Kudos to the NAC for the work they are doing. IMO we owe Dean, Ken, Rocky and John a thank you. This is more progress than has been made in half a decade of trying.

Agreed. Seniority will be settled separately- our NAC did a wonderful job in crafting the language. The four seem to work very well together

 

[3dtv]

What a bunch of psycho's :blink:

Not a bunch. Just Crimi. Pompous self righteous narcissist not near as smart as he thinks he is.

 

[Pi brat]

Your point is you want a glossy to stare into while you leap?

I'm not doing anything with CoC. I'm simply asking where is the objective comparison, knowing full well that we won't get it before I have to cast my vote. There is far too much money involved, and far too many conflicting interests to allow room for any straight answers.

Gee, sounds like the arguments of the past about ALPA. Somethings never change.

 

[Zone5]

I have to agree with most of your comments.

The major obstruction will be the Nicolau. It is the accepted arbitrated list. There is nothing that has voided that list and judge Silver said usapa or APA has to have a LUP not to use it.

The last eight years don't just disappear like they never happened.

That's NOT what the MOU says!


seajay

 

[Pi brat]

yeah, like the NAC only has until 2/8/2013 to get the comparison out.

Nice job, Owens.

How about the CLT reps that voted to put the MOU out, but personally don't care for it? Can't they put them out? Surely if the CofC has such value the numbers are readily available in the CLT office and not in the vault. The CofC is one of the main reason I hear for guys voting against this. Are people really comparing the MOU to just some idea of what the CoC is worth to vote against it?

 

[nycbusdriver]

If what you say is true. Why is PS dancing around the issue? Why would he not just come out and say the Nicolau is dead? The west would vote no the majority of east would vote yes. Done deal.

He is likely been told to not weigh in on the seniority issue at all. The MOU was concocted to leave Nicolau out of it. The people who pay him told him to keep quiet, and he does.

There is one little letter that speaks to the disappearance of the Nicolau list in all of this: MOU Section 10) h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

It says "seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways." "Lists" is plural; this is Parker's tacit admission that the Nicolau is not in play and that there are more than one "list."

Either way the new pay rates make it easy to pay for more litigation if needed. But with usapa gone the opposition to the Nicolau goes away.

I'm glad you will be able to spend even more money on your circus. Enjoy!

If the east would like to fund litigation have at it. You will also have a raise to fund your fight.

We will have a negotiated/arbitrated SLI supported by federal law, that is in ACTUAL USE, to bring to any court. The contracts will show that the TA which kept the Nicolau alive had specifically been rescinded, thereby rendering the Nicolau and your lawsuit moot. Any judge in his right mind who dismiss immediately. But maybe you will luck out and get Wake again!

And this time, there is no question where the company will stand on this. American Airlines will support the contract they signed with specific intent and language to supersede the very document that kept any hope for the Nicolau alive.

Meantime, we have our raises and the company moves on with the new seniority list, i.e. no more taunting the east pilots about LOA 93. You are left standing in the dust. But, being from PHX and employed by AWA, I supposed you are used to that.

 

[Pi brat]

I give it two years, three max, and you won't be able to find one pilot who voted yes.

You may be right but I hope that in 2-3 years we aren't fighting our old battles like we have been here for the last 7.

 

[Zone5]

What a bunch of psycho's :blink:

True enough! Does AMR have any of those?


seajay

 

[EastUS1]

If this merger goes through, we get retro - end of story. There is no gray area, no question. The counter starts 2/8 and continues until ED and a check is cut.

"There is no gray area, no question." Really? Then show us even a reasonably useful basis on which each pilot can accurately, once again = accurately calculate what's to be owed them, just for starters? "...and continues until ED and a check is cut." OK....So....what's the ensurable triggering device for said check to be cut? What's the specific deadline the company's under after ED?

Perhaps you could just alleviate any and all misplaced concerns of mine by quoting the specific language that demonstrates the validity of your easy certainty here on even this one issue?

You'll forgive me if any enthusiastic "end of story" babble fails to fill that void.

 

[dca319]

Not a bunch. Just Crimi. Pompous self righteous narcissist not near as smart as he thinks he is.

You got it.

 

[dca319]

"There is no gray area, no question." Really? Then show us even a reasonably useful basis on which each pilot can accurately, once again = accurately calculate what's to be owed them, just for starters? "...and continues until ED and a check is cut." OK....So....what's the ensurable triggering device for said check to be cut? What's the specific deadline the company's under after ED?

Perhaps you could just alleviate any and all misplaced concerns of mine by quoting the specific language that demonstrates the validity of your easy certainty here on even this one issue?

You'll forgive me if any enthusiastic "end of story" babble fails to fill that void.

Sounds like you're content with the misery that's LOA93. Have at it then. Me and most everyone else are going to move on. Fortunately for you, you'll be dragged into better pay and QoL.

 

[dca319]

I give it two years, three max, and you won't be able to find one pilot who voted yes.

In 2-3 years Group 2 C/O will be making over $200 an hour. You won't find anyone because most of us will be working less and staying home.

 

[cleardirect]

He is likely been told to not weigh in on the seniority issue at all. The MOU was concocted to leave Nicolau out of it. The people who pay him told him to keep quiet, and he does.

There is one little letter that speaks to the disappearance of the Nicolau list in all of this: MOU Section 10) h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

It says "seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways." "Lists" is plural; this is Parker's tacit admission that the Nicolau is not in play and that there are more than one "list."



I'm glad you will be able to spend even more money on your circus. Enjoy!



We will have a negotiated/arbitrated SLI supported by federal law, that is in ACTUAL USE, to bring to any court. The contracts will show that the TA which kept the Nicolau alive had specifically been rescinded, thereby rendering the Nicolau and your lawsuit moot. Any judge in his right mind who dismiss immediately. But maybe you will luck out and get Wake again!

And this time, there is no question where the company will stand on this. American Airlines will support the contract they signed with specific intent and language to supersede the very document that kept any hope for the Nicolau alive.

Meantime, we have our raises and the company moves on with the new seniority list, i.e. no more taunting the east pilots about LOA 93. You are left standing in the dust. But, being from PHX and employed by AWA, I supposed you are used to that.

Just who is it that pays the merger lawyers salary? That would be dues money from ALL pilots. Are you admitting that the usapa merger lawyer does not represent the west pilots or at least not representing the west pilots fairly?

Who told him not to weigh in on seniority? The officers? The same officers that told us using official communications that the MOU is seniority neutral? Did the leadership of usapa lie to the pilots? If usapa were to try and argue the MOU kills the Nicolau the west will present the evidence that usapa lied in order to harm west pilots.

The only lists will be east west and Nicolau.

You had better read the NAC update. The only thing that changes is pay and DC. All others on an indefinite time table. The Nicolau portion remains. Just like our work rules remain.

But if you think that the last eight years just go away have at it. You can be disappointed later.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Just who is it that pays the merger lawyers salary? That would be dues money from ALL pilots. Are you admitting that the usapa merger lawyer does not represent the west pilots or at least not representing the west pilots fairly?

What if I am admitting that? I'm just a line pilot with one vote. Try to build a case on that? Want me to go see Wake today? You sound like a deluded prosecutor wannbe, as you so often do.

Who told him not to weigh in on seniority? The officers? The same officers that told us using official communications that the MOU is seniority neutral? Did the leadership of usapa lie to the pilots? If usapa were to try and argue the MOU kills the Nicolau the west will present the evidence that usapa lied in order to harm west pilots.

Present away, Mr. Faux-Prosecutor! I'm not sure if the judge will be dumbfounded at your clutching at straw, or confounded at your incredible stupidity.

The only lists will be east west and Nicolau.

The MOU says the "lists in effect." I didn't see any west pilots get any of the new captain bids in CLT, PHL, or DCA for the month of March. I guess the Nicolau is not in effect, then.

You had better read the NAC update. The only thing that changes is pay and DC. All others on an indefinite time table. The Nicolau portion remains. Just like our work rules remain.

You had best pay attention. Everything in the MOU deals with changes that will be incorporated in the MTA. The MOU is substantially the MTA. And if the MOU is ratified, only the pay rates take effect on Feb 8th (paid retroactively when the ED is determined). The Side Letter specifically excludes other retroactive payments and mentions DC contributions in particular.

But if you think that the last eight years just go away have at it. You can be disappointed later.

Yawn.

 

[luvthe9]

Open Book Test Questions for your Negotiating Advisory Committee

​

The Compass Correction has urged our fellow pilots to read the MOU and associated USAPA Communiqués on the subject of the Virtual Merger of the bankrupted American Airlines and the highly profitable US Airways. After reading Friday's update from the NAC, we believe a test of their knowledge may be in order. WE URGE EVERYONE TO ATTEND THE NAC ROAD SHOWS!


1. What is the total dollar value of concessions by US Airways Pilots (East) for the following concessionary contracts (RA, LOA 84, LOA 85 - loss of pension, LOA 91 and LOA 93) since 2002?

2. What has been the monetary value for the Company and shareholders, in keeping the West Pilots at their December 31, 2006 amendable date contract?

3. What was the gross profit for LCC (US Airways) for 2010, 2011and 2012?

4. What were the financial results for American Airlines, during the same period?

5. What have the West and East Pilots received in the way of return value, for the concessions totaled above in answer in 1 & 2?

6. If American Airlines pilots received 13.5% equity in The New American Airlines and that equals $1,000,000,000; what is the total value of The New American Airlines?

7. Is there a date certain for the “Effective Date”?

8. If the POR date is protracted, is there any remuneration for the interest free loan being provided by the US Airways Pilots?

9. What agreement or tentative agreement contains the following contract language

1. 
   

If the Company obtains a new equity investment in an amount greater than $250 million, the percentage of the economic value of the common equity, on a fully diluted basis, offered to the Association’s members shall be reduced on a proportionate and appropriate (i.e., related to the size of the investment) basis to be determined in light of all of the relevant facts and circumstances.
A) LBFO
B) Term Sheet
C) MOU
D) LOA 93
E) Grimm’s “Hansel and Gretel”
F) LLBFO (CBA 2012)

1. 
   

10. Extra credit Question: What is the net gain in value to the New American Airlines subsequent to a merger with LCC?

1. 
   

​

1. 
   

To remind our NAC and you readers that US Airways Pilots are taking seriously the Compass Correction’s request that we all ,”Do Your Homework”, please read the submission to Compass Correction by Captain Mike Haraseviat. Mike is a CLT-Based A-330 Captain. As you can imagine, Mike will be less affected by any outcome than most. We think his engagement with the issues and thoughtful writing is admirable. We should all follow Captain Haraseviat’s example. His writings appear, unedited:

January 25, 2013
“Intentional Ambiguity?”


I have decided to put my thoughts about this MOU into words because I believe that many other USAirways pilot's must have the same uncertain understanding of this MOU.
I had previously downloaded and printed the raw MOU when the shiny version of "Flight Plan to a Merger" appeared in the mail. I was disappointed that USAPA did not include the actual MOU in the mailing. If they thought I would not be able to understand it, they were very nearly correct. Why can't it be written more clearly? I'm already getting that "deja-vu all over again" feeling.
My second disappointment came when I noticed a sentence on the very first page which says, "Like our BPR, I endorse this MOU as the best course toward a better lifestyle for our pilots." That statement is from Gary Hummel, and even though our BPR has "officially" endorsed this MOU, several BPR members have indicated they will not cast their personal vote for it. They recommend it but don't vote for it. I hate politics.
So, what am I supposed to do?
The pay rates in the MOU actually ARE a course toward a better lifestyle for me and my family. I had to slap myself when I thought of all of the things I could spend that extra money on. Listen to me…"extra money!" It's the money that all USAirways pilots have been earning FOR A LONG TIME, but not getting. I have to admit, I focused on the money and was so sure of my vote that I voted "YES" the first day the polls were open.
Then I started to study this document we call the MOU. Why is it so ambiguous? Why do we refer to minimum "block hours scheduled to be flown" instead of "minimum block hours"? It seemed to work before. (perhaps too well) Why is paragraph 8 over 3 pages long? (That's the paragraph that refers to "protections" lasting only 18 months, and seems to cover everything under the sun.) I could continue, but I think you see where my discomfort is, and probably yours too. Here is a 15 page document that, if cleaned up to make it clear, concise, and unambiguous, would probably read about 7 pages. Kind of makes you wonder. Any good attorney could feed his family for a year on the billable hours to argue the meaning this MOU. Been here before, haven't we?
Why can't anyone tell me exactly what year I will get to use 31 days of vacation? Is that so difficult to put into a sentence? Here's an example of a simple sentence; Take the first sentence of paragraph 14. It's very clear, concise, and unambiguous. "USAPA agrees to waive all change of control provisions,..." Here's proof that the writers of the MOU have the ability write very clear, concise, and unambiguous sentences. A really good attorney would starve trying to argue the meaning of that.
You have probably have your own concerns about the MOU, things I have missed. And that's my point. Why should have I missed anything? Like yours, my personal life has been full of contracts, leases, and other documents to read, understand, and execute. If presented with a document like this MOU in my personal life, I would send it back for a "clean-up" before executing it.
Nearly every pilot on this property knows that bad things happen when someone says, “Just sign it, we’ll figure out the details later.” We’ve been living with the results of that mistake for a more than a decade. Haven’t we learned anything?
I hope I have pointed out how, in my opinion, we are about to consider an open-ended document, the interpretations of which will have far reaching and long lasting effects on our careers. I’m not asking for more money, more vacation, more sick time, etc. This pilot group has been stuck in a 10 feet deep hole for many years, and with respect to those things, we have been handed a 9 foot ladder. I’ll take that for now with the hope of getting the rest later. All I’m asking is that we take out the ambiguity, and clean up the language so that even I can understand the meaning. Paragraph 14 proves they have the ability to do this.
The way the MOU currently reads, I have to cast a NO vote.

Mike Haraseviat
Capt CLT-A330