Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

So angry. Be careful old man you may stress beyond your capability

"Stress"...From the pathetic likes of you?...Thanks for the Joke of the Year thus far. No worries son. You're nothing more than an entirely insignificant pissant. 🙂 I'd had some momentary hopes for some wagering action from Ames...He, at least, apparently flew F4's...Whatever our gross differences...I respect and understand that...while YOU..are, well NOTHING to even think about, much less "respect"...little "pilot"/princess 🙂

BTW...your precious rep, cactusboy53 has yet again rejected the challenge...umm...do you pathetic little westie princesses have ANYONE out there that can even marginally pass themselves off as a "Pilot"? 😉

Oh cactusboy...care to stand up as "hero", "knight" or even "dire wolf" for you flock?....Didn't much think so pissant.

 

[Fully Cross Utilized]

There's never any shortage of stray dogs to blow...Perhaps you should get right on that for a little "extra credit" at the next AWA/St. Nic peyote and sweat lodge ceremony.

Seriously though...is that really the best you could offer up in way of a witty and razor sharp, fast-as-lightning riposte? Sigh...Like I'd observed..this isn't much akin to talking with any actual Pilots....One must wonder what sorts of sorry, drooling, wannabe infants were deeemd acceptable by mighty AWA 😉

Did I say it was my best? It was just a simple observation. Nobody is actually debating you. Just offering up a little bait that you are incapable of passing up. Get a life.

 

[cleardirect]

"Stress"...From the pathetic likes of you?...Thanks for the Joke of the Year thus far. No worries son. You're nothing more than an entirely insignificant pissant. 🙂 I'd had some momentary hopes for some wagering action from Ames...He, at least, apparently flew F4's...YOU..are, well NOTHING to even think about...little "pilot"/princess 🙂

Yet here you are pounding the keyboard spittle flying from you're twisted mouth as you rage.

I am beginning to feel sorry for you old man. The rest of your radical DOH posters have left the building. You are left to tilt at the windmill all alone, throwing blind punches at shadows never connecting.

Take a break, talk to your wife, or someone if you have any friends. But you need to relax and take a break from the boards. This is obviously to stressful for you.

 

[EastUS1]

Yet here you are pounding the keyboard spittle flying from you're twisted mouth as you rage.

I am beginning to feel sorry for you old man. The rest of your radical DOH posters have left the building. You are left to tilt at the windmill all alone, throwing blind punches at shadows never connecting.

Take a break, talk to your wife, or someone if you have any friends. But you need to relax and take a break from the boards. This is obviously to stressful for you.

In other words...all of you worthless little AWA "tigers" are just nothing more than pathetic, mouthly gutless little pussies, that can't stand up to any challenge whatsoever, and needs must mask your spineless nature to yourselves with such BS as you offer.

OK...Understood. You could have just simply said that, and saved the reading audience any waste of their time. 🙂 Oh!...wait! I see now...since your'e not anything more than a complete joke of a "Pilot"...we should still engage on a keyboard basis? Seek out the stray dogs, and do something usefull, that's within your actual abilities. 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

Did I say it was my best?

You didn't need to, as it clearly was. 😉 Had you even half a brain...well...I could suggest a myriad of other options other than what you mindlessley limited yourself to....of necessity, I suppose. Stick with the teenaged, AWA crowd's "mentality" if you want flashing pom poms for your ignorance and general stupidity....You'll have to play to either an accepting or just otherewise, extremely gullible audience in your case.

Please take the conversational level to a much higher level...That might be fun, and you people otherwise, just plain bore me to death here. Do your truly know, or can even imagine, how tedious it is to endure any enviornment overwhelmed by just-plain-stupid? The most truly serious heartache I've gotten from this "merger", is to be associated with such as yourself, and forcibly realize..that..well...my long-cherished notions that Pilots generally had brains as a given...really wasn't true at all..at least in this "Brave New World"...Morons like yourself actually get jobs flying people around...WHO could've ever predicted THAT?

 

[Claxon]

You were distressed? Awww, poor EastUS got his little feelings hurt. Here's a suggestion: don't make yourself such an easy target.

Speaking of fully cross utilized, america west pilots used to have to do double duty as dispatchers. Fortunately the men working as pilots for other airlines did not follow their lead.

"A combination of ideas were used in the formation of America West. Cross-utilization of employees, brought to new extremes by PEOPLExpress, would be a major feature of America West. Pilots would also work dispatch.."

(Producer, Cue in Dailey video next)

http://www.psa-histo...wa/history.html

 

[Phoenix]

Come on now Phoenix. I asked you a simple question why are you running away and avoid it?




I have explained what implements the Nicolau.

What do you think implements a DOH list? What process does it take to get that?

Explain clearly and in detail.

Clear, in view of your rabble rousing I wonder if you are really a pilot or just an instigator like Uhaul (where is that misfit? ).

You have huge disconnects in your lines of logic, feverish leaps of faith, and no interest in rational conversations.. even so I already replied to you several times. ^_^

 

[Claxon]

You america west pilots crossing a picket line in Australia, fully cross utilized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5t5aE0iW4o

 

[etops1]

This was a pretty decent summary at the fiasco that's going on with the US pilots .


US Airways and its pilots

In the conversations that take place regarding the US Airways / American Airlines merger opportunity, naysayers within both companies frequently end up being the pilots. The minority groups of these pilots like to ask for (demand) firm agreements on seniority integration and point to Doug Parker and his team being unable to achieve seniority integration for US Airways pilots since the America West / US Airways merger of 2005.

That’s really not true. The history there is bloody but it really is the fault and responsibility of the pilots involved that combination. Here is what has happened:

America West and US Airways pilots were both represented by ALPA. As such, when the merger occurred there was a mechanism in place at ALPA to arbitrate such a seniority integration. There were many issues but the overriding viewpoints on each side were centered around a couple of things. America West pilots felt they deserved to have their seniority (and job opportunities) guarded to some fair degree because it was their airline that was consuming US Airways which had been in bankruptcy not once but twice in the same decade. That was a reasonable viewpoint and it could have been handled by using “fences” to protect some percentage of jobs for those pilots.

US Airways pilots wanted a date of hire seniority integration because their pilot group had some very old, very senior pilots who didn’t want to be knocked down from the premium pilot opportunities. Since these pilots had agreed to major wage concessions in two bankruptcies, they felt they had given enough at that point. This wasn’t entirely reasonable but it wasn’t entirely unreasonable either.

In the arbitration discussions, US Airways representation basically went “hardline” and drilled in on a date of hire seniority integration and avoided discussing any ways to come to a compromise using mechanisms that would give each side some protection and some opportunity. Fencing routes and/or aircraft was one way this could have been handled and the most senior of each pilot group could have had their retirement protected reasonably well.

But the hardline negotiations on the part of the US Airways group led to the arbitrator having to make a tough ruling that blended each group with a relative date of hire integration. This solution had some fairly junior America West captains sitting in front of some fairly senior US Airways captains (as an example.)

US Airways pilots went livid and used the nuclear option. They held a new union representation election and formed a new independent union called USAPA. They were able to do this because they actually outnumbered America West pilots. Essentially, US Airways pilots didn’t like the binding arbitration and had a rare opportunity to stick it to everyone and did so.

This breakaway and the lack of seniority integration has been litigated in court ever since between the two pilot groups. Doug Parker and his executive team have very wisely stayed far, far away from this problem the whole time. They’re not even sure who they should legally engage in negotiations with and have (rightly) offered the opinion that the pilots had to get their act together first. The pilots have been unable to do so for more than 5 years.

Frankly, my own opinion is that a court should have made a decision that looked like this:
•The pilots may organize in any way they wish including creating an independent union. However,
•The pilots must integrate according to the ALPA/Nicolau seniority integration arbitration decision before anything else occurs. Binding arbitration that results in a decision should be enforced otherwise binding arbitration isn’t binding.
•After the seniority integration is implemented, the pilots may work out their contracts and future seniority issues among themselves and with the company leadership.

Under that scenario, no one gets their cake and the chance to eat it too.

Now, there is a reason why most pilots actually view the US Airways / AA merger as a good thing. There is now federal law which governs a seniority integration which didn’t exist when America West bought US Airways. This law works fairly well. Not perfectly but it does get the job done and that’s important.

American Airlines pilots are very senior and know that under that federal law they’ll do pretty well. If they do pretty well and the new airline is successful, their future is pretty secure and that’s what a pilot wants.

America West pilots know that they’ll do pretty well because the merger framework pretty much raises their incomes to levels never thought of before because the baseline for those wages will be AA pilot wages. Even if they lose some positions in seniority, everyone makes a lot more money. Best of all, USAPA almost certainly goes away as a union and that is an emotional win for America West pilots. (I would argue that while USAPA is pretty awful as a union, they aren’t exactly upgrading big with AA’s Allied Pilots Association.)

US Airways (Old) pilots are very senior and know that they’ll do pretty well under the federal law as seniority integration goes and they, too, get a big raise.

All three parties in this know that they don’t have to deal with a multi-year mess of seniority integration if this deal is made because the McCaskill Bond statute provides adequate framework for a fairly timely seniority integration. No union leadership in this battle has to “fight” because there is only so much that can be fought for under the law now. Notice that in the United / Continental merger there really wasn’t much “fight” between the unions as there were few areas where any “fight” could occur.

So despite the naysayers predicting a mess of seniority integration, that’s not really true. It will happen and the worse case scenario is that everyone gets a pay raise and gets a fairly secure future with an airline that can compete globally. More so, Doug Parker and his team also know this and also know that if they present a deal that gets everyone a bit of what they want in a worst case scenario, they’ll be integrated in fairly short time. They can do this deal and succeed in the labor area without much fear and most creditors know this by now.


Filed under: Mergers and Bankruptcy by ajax

 

[EastUS1]

So angry. Be careful old man you may stress beyond your capability.

PM to your "heroic" rep, "cactusboy" little westie eunuch: "Intent on staying nothing more than a completely chickenshit, big mouthed, pathetic little punk?.....Or, would you care to try your luck at becoming a great "Hero" to your west kindred? 🙂

Step up punk...I'm past bored with you pathetic jackasses.
well....PM if interested.

Do think on it though....I'm light years past bored with you pathetic little west punks...Wake me up here! 😉 You're supposedly, and I think only supposedly, but no matter, a "Pilot", and a presumed "Hero" to the west. WHAT could possibly be better for you, not only politically, but personally and to the aclaim of your entire group...than to defeat the arrogant EASTUS in the sky? I mean really...What could be better for you? We could have whatever cameras/etc present that you wish.......Ummm...Well..that is...unless you know that you're nothing even close to a Real Pilot...but THAT couldn't be true...could it, little boy? 🙂

C'mon...I'm bored with this BS...let's actually FLY! 😉 You want so much as an ounce of respect?...Fine...earn it! You've little to lose here. Your west idiots know that you're just another west idiot. I'm "Eastus", and military/non-fantasy war/etc.The worst you could do is just get you ass kicked, which admittedly, would be the certain outcome The BEST you could do however, would be to score a mighty blow for AWA arrogance...well...ok...good luck with that,.....but work with me here...I'm trying to get this to happen. 😉 Generating any engagement is hard to do with complete and utterly worthless pussies. Show me I'm wrong with you there....?"

What's your guess that he takes me up there? 🙂 " Be careful old man you may stress beyond your capability." Surprisingly?...I'm comfortable taking my chances with that..is cactusboy?....or YOU? 😉

"Generating any engagement is hard to do with complete and utterly worthless pussies." I see fifidriver online. Please consider yourself equally challenged and affronted, and do let us all know your explantion for being among the aforementioned group = "complete and utterly worthless pussies."

 

[Claxon]

Why the america west pilot get profit sharing with out a profit. alpa.

August 2, 2005

By Telecopier and E-Mail
Jerrold Glass
Executive Vice President
US Airways, Inc.
2345 Crystal Drive
Arlington, VA 22227
RE: LOA #93
Dear Jerry:
Letter of Agreement #93 provides that “No later than fifteen (15) days prior to the
disclosure hearing related to the proposed plan of reorganization, the Association must
notify the Company of its intent to accept or reject the offer of profit sharing under the
plan.” The Company has previously agreed to extend this time until August 2, 2005 at
5:00 p.m.
The ALPA US Airways MEC hereby notifies the Company that pursuant to LOA
#93 it accepts the profit sharing under the plan of reorganization. ALPA reserves all of its
rights under LOA #93 in regard to the Association’s equity distribution under the plan of
reorganization and all of its other rights in relation to the plan of reorganization. ALPA
will continue to demand that the plan of reorganization provide to the US Airways pilots
the full equity value as agreed upon by the Association and US Airways Group. ALPA
will also continue to demand that the profit sharing under the plan include the America
West pilots on the same basis as the US Airways pilots.
Sincerely,
Captain William D. Pollock
Chairman, US Airways MEC
cc: US Airways MEC
JR Baker
M. Abram
R. Seltzer

 

[Walmartgreeter]

This was a pretty decent summary at the fiasco that's going on with the US pilots .


US Airways and its pilots

In the conversations that take place regarding the US Airways / American Airlines merger opportunity, naysayers within both companies frequently end up being the pilots. The minority groups of these pilots like to ask for (demand) firm agreements on seniority integration and point to Doug Parker and his team being unable to achieve seniority integration for US Airways pilots since the America West / US Airways merger of 2005.

That's really not true. The history there is bloody but it really is the fault and responsibility of the pilots involved that combination. Here is what has happened:

America West and US Airways pilots were both represented by ALPA. As such, when the merger occurred there was a mechanism in place at ALPA to arbitrate such a seniority integration. There were many issues but the overriding viewpoints on each side were centered around a couple of things. America West pilots felt they deserved to have their seniority (and job opportunities) guarded to some fair degree because it was their airline that was consuming US Airways which had been in bankruptcy not once but twice in the same decade. That was a reasonable viewpoint and it could have been handled by using "fences" to protect some percentage of jobs for those pilots.

US Airways pilots wanted a date of hire seniority integration because their pilot group had some very old, very senior pilots who didn't want to be knocked down from the premium pilot opportunities. Since these pilots had agreed to major wage concessions in two bankruptcies, they felt they had given enough at that point. This wasn't entirely reasonable but it wasn't entirely unreasonable either.

In the arbitration discussions, US Airways representation basically went "hardline" and drilled in on a date of hire seniority integration and avoided discussing any ways to come to a compromise using mechanisms that would give each side some protection and some opportunity. Fencing routes and/or aircraft was one way this could have been handled and the most senior of each pilot group could have had their retirement protected reasonably well.

But the hardline negotiations on the part of the US Airways group led to the arbitrator having to make a tough ruling that blended each group with a relative date of hire integration. This solution had some fairly junior America West captains sitting in front of some fairly senior US Airways captains (as an example.)

US Airways pilots went livid and used the nuclear option. They held a new union representation election and formed a new independent union called USAPA. They were able to do this because they actually outnumbered America West pilots. Essentially, US Airways pilots didn't like the binding arbitration and had a rare opportunity to stick it to everyone and did so.

This breakaway and the lack of seniority integration has been litigated in court ever since between the two pilot groups. Doug Parker and his executive team have very wisely stayed far, far away from this problem the whole time. They're not even sure who they should legally engage in negotiations with and have (rightly) offered the opinion that the pilots had to get their act together first. The pilots have been unable to do so for more than 5 years.

Frankly, my own opinion is that a court should have made a decision that looked like this:
•The pilots may organize in any way they wish including creating an independent union. However,
•The pilots must integrate according to the ALPA/Nicolau seniority integration arbitration decision before anything else occurs. Binding arbitration that results in a decision should be enforced otherwise binding arbitration isn't binding.
•After the seniority integration is implemented, the pilots may work out their contracts and future seniority issues among themselves and with the company leadership.

Under that scenario, no one gets their cake and the chance to eat it too.

Now, there is a reason why most pilots actually view the US Airways / AA merger as a good thing. There is now federal law which governs a seniority integration which didn't exist when America West bought US Airways. This law works fairly well. Not perfectly but it does get the job done and that's important.

American Airlines pilots are very senior and know that under that federal law they'll do pretty well. If they do pretty well and the new airline is successful, their future is pretty secure and that's what a pilot wants.

America West pilots know that they'll do pretty well because the merger framework pretty much raises their incomes to levels never thought of before because the baseline for those wages will be AA pilot wages. Even if they lose some positions in seniority, everyone makes a lot more money. Best of all, USAPA almost certainly goes away as a union and that is an emotional win for America West pilots. (I would argue that while USAPA is pretty awful as a union, they aren't exactly upgrading big with AA's Allied Pilots Association.)

US Airways (Old) pilots are very senior and know that they'll do pretty well under the federal law as seniority integration goes and they, too, get a big raise.

All three parties in this know that they don't have to deal with a multi-year mess of seniority integration if this deal is made because the McCaskill Bond statute provides adequate framework for a fairly timely seniority integration. No union leadership in this battle has to "fight" because there is only so much that can be fought for under the law now. Notice that in the United / Continental merger there really wasn't much "fight" between the unions as there were few areas where any "fight" could occur.

So despite the naysayers predicting a mess of seniority integration, that's not really true. It will happen and the worse case scenario is that everyone gets a pay raise and gets a fairly secure future with an airline that can compete globally. More so, Doug Parker and his team also know this and also know that if they present a deal that gets everyone a bit of what they want in a worst case scenario, they'll be integrated in fairly short time. They can do this deal and succeed in the labor area without much fear and most creditors know this by now.


Filed under: Mergers and Bankruptcy by ajax

This is such a steaming pile of inaccuracies and misrepresentations that I cannot even start to comment on it.Next.Greeter

 

[Fully Cross Utilized]

PM to your "heroic" rep, "cactusboy" little westie eunuch: "Intent on staying nothing more than a completely chickenshit, big mouthed, pathetic little punk?.....Or, would you care to try your luck at becoming a great "Hero" to your west kindred? 🙂

Step up punk...I'm past bored with you pathetic jackasses.
well....PM if interested.

Do think on it though....I'm light years past bored with you pathetic little west punks...Wake me up here! 😉 You're supposedly, and I think only supposedly, but no matter, a "Pilot", and a presumed "Hero" to the west. WHAT could possibly be better for you, not only politically, but personally and to the aclaim of your entire group...than to defeat the arrogant EASTUS in the sky? I mean really...What could be better for you? We could have whatever cameras/etc present that you wish.......Ummm...Well..that is...unless you know that you're nothing even close to a Real Pilot...but THAT couldn't be true...could it, little boy? 🙂

C'mon...I'm bored with this BS...let's actually FLY! 😉 You want so much as an ounce of respect?...Fine...earn it! You've little to lose here. Your west idiots know that you're just another west idiot. I'm "Eastus", and military/non-fantasy war/etc.The worst you could do is just get you ass kicked, which admittedly, would be the certain outcome The BEST you could do however, would be to score a mighty blow for AWA arrogance...well...ok...good luck with that,.....but work with me here...I'm trying to get this to happen. 😉 Generating any engagement is hard to do with complete and utterly worthless pussies. Show me I'm wrong with you there....?"

What's your guess that he takes me up there? 🙂 " Be careful old man you may stress beyond your capability." Surprisingly?...I'm comfortable taking my chances with that..is cactusboy?....or YOU? 😉

"Generating any engagement is hard to do with complete and utterly worthless pussies."

 

[EastUS1]

"Generating any engagement is hard to do with complete and utterly worthless pussies." Your evidenced stupidity isn't any viable excuse for, or any proper replacement for Honor or a Brain son....Run along back to your xbox....little "Pilot" 🙂

"Generating any engagement is hard to do with complete and utterly worthless pussies."....I'm having to now believe that such is completely impossible with the west's mighty "spartans"...your own "heroic spartan" Rep here is a COMPLETE chickenshit..and your rank and file little puppies are, well, apparently a complete joke as well.

I'm bored. Let's FLY. Any of you pathetic little west punks want to help me out here? 😉 Name your stakes. I'm willing to cut down on wagers....to accomodate the awesome wealth you've accumulated on your west contract. 🙂

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Why the america west pilot get profit sharing with out a profit. alpa.

August 2, 2005

By Telecopier and E-Mail
Jerrold Glass
Executive Vice President
US Airways, Inc.
2345 Crystal Drive
Arlington, VA 22227
RE: LOA #93
Dear Jerry:
Letter of Agreement #93 provides that “No later than fifteen (15) days prior to the
disclosure hearing related to the proposed plan of reorganization, the Association must
notify the Company of its intent to accept or reject the offer of profit sharing under the
plan.” The Company has previously agreed to extend this time until August 2, 2005 at
5:00 p.m.
The ALPA US Airways MEC hereby notifies the Company that pursuant to LOA
#93 it accepts the profit sharing under the plan of reorganization. ALPA reserves all of its
rights under LOA #93 in regard to the Association’s equity distribution under the plan of
reorganization and all of its other rights in relation to the plan of reorganization. ALPA
will continue to demand that the plan of reorganization provide to the US Airways pilots
the full equity value as agreed upon by the Association and US Airways Group. ALPA
will also continue to demand that the profit sharing under the plan include the America
West pilots on the same basis as the US Airways pilots.
Sincerely,
Captain William D. Pollock
Chairman, US Airways MEC
cc: US Airways MEC
JR Baker
M. Abram
R. Seltzer

Another steaming pile of stale news. The West pilots got profit sharing because they were due it. Not rocket science, and in fact the entire East MEC at the time agreed it was better to give to them right off the bat, then take the chance of ALL losing the fundage. At the time (late 2006) it amounted to each East pilot giving up about $600 of about 5K..of moneys that would actually already belonged to the West. Had the battle been fought, there was no "profit sharing fund." During arbitration, had the Company had a bad year, they simply would have spent the moneys. Please. Old news. Old logic. Dead issue. Move on.Greeter