Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

How about an equal retirement for everyone that does not have PBGC checks like the resolution that was voted down by the east reps?

Eastus wants what the APA boys have but got all bent out of shape when it was suggested that someone gets what he has.

Your ailment is not uncommon but it is inexcusable. How do folks hold, and project their belief, that all pilots must get their gains by exploiting the possessions of other pilots, rather than by working for a wage the company has promised to pay them? Envy causes a lot of problems.

 

[prechilill]

Your ailment is not uncommon but it is inexcusable. How do folks hold, and project their belief, that all pilots must get their gains by exploiting the possessions of other pilots, rather than by working for a wage the company has promised to pay them? Envy causes a lot of problems.

Great, we will just file that under the "I admit no two airlines are equal" file and thus put the theory of matching dates of hire between two different airlines in that same little file too.

 

[traderjake]

Your ailment is not uncommon but it is inexcusable. How do folks hold, and project their belief, that all pilots must get their gains by exploiting the possessions of other pilots, rather than by working for a wage the company has promised to pay them?

Are you really saying that from the couch while out on a medical?

 

[nevergiveup]

To bad east pilots can't keep your word like those people of old. When people kept their word.

Agree to a deal (arbitration) and live up to that deal or get your neck cut.

Oh well usapa has been lead to the slaughter.

You should have read the transition agreement.

 

[doh nogo]

Claxon has now turned on us. A man now alone on his own island.

Nothing new, he's done it before.

Be specific in your accusations please sir.

Your job was given to you, that is why you do not mind giving things away. You did not earn it.

How do you know so much about me?

Ahhhhh.... more east on east porn. Love it!

 

[PullUp]

How about an equal retirement for everyone that does not have PBGC checks like the resolution that was voted down by the east reps?

Eastus wants what the APA boys have but got all bent out of shape when it was suggested that someone gets what he has.

It's not that guys are coveting what AA guys will receive, it's the perceived injustice of paltry returns on massive givebacks. The east was told to take the hit and in the future when things improved they would share in the spoils.
Now we are being asked to accept another bankruptcy contract that will only let us catch up - and that'll take 6-8 years. Parker has not offered one red nickel in this deal, all the money is coming from AA and the financiers.
LCC should be able to cough up some cash in the form of a signing bonus - and I'm sorry, 10k before taxes just isn't enough.
And I won't even begin to mention what is being conceded that will never be recovered in this agreement. I don't care if the next contract negotiation is scheduled for tomorrow, these concessions will never be recovered.
NO.

 

[EastUS1]

It's not that guys are coveting what AA guys will receive, .....

Now we are being asked to accept another bankruptcy contract...........

LCC should be able to cough up some cash in the form of a signing bonus - and I'm sorry, 10k before taxes just isn't enough.
And I won't even begin to mention what is being conceded that will never be recovered in this agreement. I don't care if the next contract negotiation is scheduled for tomorrow, these concessions will never be recovered.
NO.

Well said sir. For myself; the issues here are avoiding intentionally falling prey to obviously inadequate, contractual language (to say the VERY least there) and properly employing the unique, current conditions to the group's best tactical advantage. Pretty basic stuff really....yet some of the responses to such seemingly simple and obvious notions are nothing short of astonishing here.

Imo: No sane person would ever even sign any contract for a car purchase that's crafted with the type of language contained (or most notably omitted) in this MOU. What's spoken of in road shows or anywhere else does nothing to change what the actual, legal instrument contains...nothing whatsoever. Any and all future disputes won't address what anyone now says, but will instead be contested from the contents, as written, of the instrument it's self. But, But!...The salesmen said!?....won't carry even the slightest weight.

"...these concessions will never be recovered." Indeed. I can only again note the old poker axiom: "If after sitting at any table for 30 minutes you don't know who the sucker is...it's you."

 

[Portly Dorman]

Us meaning the west pilots? True, your lottery ticket was marginalized by USAPA.

I like to think of your lottery ticket as being right sized by the Union.

Rriigghhtt.....

Who was the west pilot in court in CLT for the injunction?? Courtney Borman doesn't count.

You think you have a lottery ticket now and will get DOH with the APA?? Step away from the pipe!!!

65% of the East in the top 50% of a combined list with AA. Let me know how that works out for you. Those LOA93 pay rates your so proud of are going to really help your cause.

 

[USA320Pilot]

RECALL UPDATE #3​

The following are some questions that have been raised by the misinformation propagated by the recent mailing of our CLT Reps. Rather than campaign on their success and record of accomplishments, they instead choose to attack their constituents. Note the tone of their message. We do recognize their dedication and hard work but challenge our Reps in their next message to communicate a factual record of accomplishment and their vision for the future.

Are we diehard ALPA supporters?
No - We are USAPA supporters, since inception, who along with 400 of your USAPA peers, that include USAPA founders, decided to initiate a recall of our CLT Reps.

Is Chip Munn running this recall?
No, and neither is AOL or Obama.

What is our position on seniority integration?
We fully support the USAPA Constitution with DOH/C&R.

What is our position on the pension investigation?
We support the PIC and applaud their efforts.

Would we have given away our seniority?
A fact-less, meritless statement that can only be assumed to invoke fear. This is not a leadership quality.

Are the 400 pilots who signed the recall petitions to blame for the LOA 93 debacle?
The leadership style of our Reps was exactly the leadership style at work within ALPA that brought us LOA 93. Division and a lack of Unity with 5 reps using the Roll call vote over 50 times.

Was the catalyst for the recall the BPR vote on MOU1?
No - it was Steve Crimi's statement at the August 20th domicile meeting maintaining they are the "Firewall" of information to the line pilots and they would not let the line pilot vote unless they liked a particular agreement. That notion was overwhelmingly rejected by a show of hands from the line pilots present. Do they not trust their constituents, when educated with the facts, to make their own decision and let the majority prevail?

10-0-1 vote - MOU#1 and MOU#2?
Fact - The NAC and Roland Wilder, our professional negotiator, recommended MOU1 in order to “have a seat at the table” as it was a “fast moving and dynamic” time with Horton likely to pull the NDA card anytime. In light of a possible split, Roland also recommended that whatever their vote, it be unanimous for leverage. It was the opinion of Roland, the NAC, Merger and Lead Council that we would have been in a stronger negotiating position at the table working on MOU #2 if we had MOU #1 rather than LOA 93. It took a lawsuit to get back to the table. Just as APA leveraged the merger and new contract to improve their CLA/Term Sheet with Parker, we would have been working in concert with them. How much did we possibly leave at the table by not listening to our Professional Negotiators?

Is the retroactive pay due to the fortitude of the CLT and two PHL Reps?
While this has been propagated by our Reps, with possible violations of the NDA, the remaining 6 BPR members, PN, NAC and Officers unanimously differ with this 'recollection'. Pete Dugstad’s (DCA) letter 1/18/13. We choose to give credit to ALL parties involved and would expect our Reps to move forward in Unity.

Was the recall influential in shaping the outcome of negotiations?
We will not take any credit for the success of the negotiations and have already mentioned those who deserve the credit. We do not believe the CLT Reps would be influenced by a group allegedly led by ‘Chip’s army’ and leave money on the table, which they state is the unfortunate truth. If so, one would have to question their leadership.

We are facing a new future, one that should be not be viewed through the rear view mirror of the past, but the possibilities that the future holds. Change is inevitable. Your vote can steer the direction of that change and we hope you chose to do so. Vote Yes to recall the CLT Reps.https://www.BallotPoint.com/USAPA/

Tom McGuirk
CLT AB C/A
Michael Bake
CLT AB F/O​

 

[cleardirect]

Your ailment is not uncommon but it is inexcusable. How do folks hold, and project their belief, that all pilots must get their gains by exploiting the possessions of other pilots, rather than by working for a wage the company has promised to pay them? Envy causes a lot of problems.

You would know. Furloughed east pilots envy active west pilots. East f/o envy west captains.

How often did we hear east pilots whine about the pay west pilots have had.

An arbitrator determined seniority. East pilots trying to take that.

 

[cleardirect]

You should have read the transition agreement.

I did. Seham should have read the T/A.

 

[EastUS1]

Is Chip Munn running this recall?

Well, Chip Munn's at least posting this here. Whew! I suddenly feel the need for some fresh air.

 

[cleardirect]

It's not that guys are coveting what AA guys will receive, it's the perceived injustice of paltry returns on massive givebacks. The east was told to take the hit and in the future when things improved they would share in the spoils.
Now we are being asked to accept another bankruptcy contract that will only let us catch up - and that'll take 6-8 years. Parker has not offered one red nickel in this deal, all the money is coming from AA and the financiers.
LCC should be able to cough up some cash in the form of a signing bonus - and I'm sorry, 10k before taxes just isn't enough.
And I won't even begin to mention what is being conceded that will never be recovered in this agreement. I don't care if the next contract negotiation is scheduled for tomorrow, these concessions will never be recovered.
NO.

Funny. You complain about having to pay for another airlines BK. Do you not see the irony of your complaint?

The west pilots were asked to pay for the east BK. and east pilots are demanding that the west to give up seniority too.

 

[Al Legheny]

Clax, you provide no substance to any argument here, East, West, or Dallas. You are in fact the biggest jerk here since Move2Clt left, if he even did. I had one of my Dad's childhood friends attempt to get me hired at PI, and was hired North before it "took." Guess you will "sit out" any help you can give to your spawn (god forbid you have any) if they ever took to the sky.You are what we called at my little boy's school East of the Rockies a "headless vector." Greeter

The Fly on the Wall and a leader of the Compass Correction are actually the dreaded Piranha Brothers, Doug and Dinsdale. Dinsdale was born in 1955 and Doug Two weeks later. They soon formed a Gang, called the Gang and they terrorized the suburbs of metropolis.

[font="Calibri""]It is said that Dinsdale was a gentleman; he bought his mother flowers and that he knew how to treat a [/font][font="Calibri""]female impersonator[/font][font="Calibri""]. Despite a jaw-dropping violent streak (including nailing people's heads to the floor and to coffee tables,[/font]
[font="Calibri""]and screwing people's pelvises to cake stands), he was beloved by everyone who knew him, most considering him "a cruel man, but fair". The local police [/font][font="Calibri""]chief [/font][font="Calibri""] was in his employ, and would help him threaten others with a [/font][font="Calibri""]thermonuclear[/font][font="Calibri""] [/font][font="Calibri""]device[/font][font="Calibri""]. Dinsdale also possessed a [/font][font="Calibri""]tank[/font][font="Calibri""]. Known associates of the Piranhas included American musical stars, aristocrats, a man named [/font][font="Calibri""]Kierkegaard[/font][font="Calibri""] who bit the heads off [/font][font="Calibri""]whippets[/font][font="Calibri""] [/font][font="Calibri""]and other former Union leaders.[/font]
[font="Calibri""]Doug, on the other hand, was the most feared man in the London underworld. [/font][font="Calibri""]Luigi Vercotti[/font][font="Calibri""], a [/font][font="Calibri""]pimp[/font][font="Calibri""], claims to have seen grown men pull their own heads off rather than speak to Doug – indeed, even Dinsdale feared Doug. This was largely due to his merciless use of [/font][font="Calibri""]sarcasm[/font][font="Calibri""], [/font][font="Calibri""]dramatic irony[/font][font="Calibri""], [/font][font="Calibri""]metaphor[/font][font="Calibri""], [/font][font="Calibri""]pathos[/font][font="Calibri""], [/font][font="Calibri""]puns[/font][font="Calibri""], [/font][font="Calibri""]parody[/font][font="Calibri""], [/font][font="Calibri""]litotes[/font][font="Calibri""] and [/font][font="Calibri""]satire[/font][font="Calibri""]. Many of those menaced by the Piranha Brothers denied any ill will toward them, terrified into compliance with a [/font][font="Calibri""]code of silence[/font][font="Calibri""].[/font]

[font="Calibri""]Dinsdale was deeply afraid of Spiny Norman, an (apparently) imaginary [/font][font="Calibri""]hedgehog[/font][font="Calibri""] who, he believed, lived in a hangar at Pittsburgh Airport who "was wont to be about twelve feet from "snout to tail", (one version states "about twelve feet from "tip of his snout to his anus"); when Dinsdale was depressed, Norman could be anything up to eight hundred yards long."[/font]

[font="Calibri""]Dinsdale and Doug also used logic to work out complicated problems. One of their more logical musings..[/font]

[font="Calibri""]“If a woman weighs as much as a duck, she is made of wood, that’s because wood and ducks float. If she is made of wood she can be burnt. If she can be burnt, she is a witch… “[/font]

Just remember when you read stuff like this, just say DINSDALE…

 

[Al Legheny]

He was cruel but fair......