Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Walmartgreeter]

The old grade school adage still applies. To all things that smell bad. This one fits the bill....
"He who denied it, supplied it." Munn is definitely all over this one.

Bold face LIE Swan, and you know it. Greeter

 

[Portly Dorman]

Well, Chip Munn's at least posting this here. 😉 Whew! I suddenly feel the need for some fresh air.

And your 8 year old posts mean something??

 

[dca319]

That question is more apropos to your assertion that unresolved issues can and will be adressed in the JCBA. If there is cause to get improvements, it won't happen after there is an agreement.

I'm willing to give the APA a go to get us an even better JCBA with a few thousand more pilots standing behind them. USAPA, as you may have noticed, hasn't done anything except get us an injunction.

 

[dca319]

If we turn this down, will the creditors be on our side or the company's?

The company's of course. Plan A has always been to do this deal with us on the sidelines. Plan B had us getting an MoU and participating. They'll just go back to plan A.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Just a few rhetorical and non-rhetorical questions.

If the MOU is voted down, how and when will we know that CoC has officially been triggered?

Then what is a reasonable expectation for the length of time it will take to file, litigate and receive a ruling on a CoC grievance?

Can we assume that early in this scenario USAPA will cease to exist?

Is it reasonable to assume that APA will not fund our fight and that we, east pilots only, will be asked to send money to fund this grievance?

In the meantime, as we negotiate with our APA counterparts over seniority integration and they ask for our payrates - which figures will we submit, LOA93 or 2002 Book Rates?

 

[Zone5]

Really!

When ALPA told the east pilots they "know" it was going to be DOH. That did not happen. Then usapa came along and they "know" that Nicolau got it wrong and that the "gold standard" is DOH and Seham knew that he was going to throw out arbitration and the result of seniority integration was going to be DOH. Are you saying that east pilots have not conjured up a result?

This is getting interesting. East pilots now figuring out that all the arguments you guys have made over the years are now backfiring on you.

Better be careful. The APA may file a Rico suit soon.

Yes, REALLY! Everything I stated in my post is a fact. It's what is written in the MOU and the basis upon which USAPA will base its SLI efforts on. You may not like it, but it is where we are today and how we will be going forward. How the PROCESS will turn out is the ONLY unanswered question, assuming the MOU passes. I hate that for you!


seajay

 

[Black Swan]

Why? Tracy parrella is not the grievance chair anymore and east pilots will not be in charge of the committee.

The APA will have reasonable adults running the committee. Unlike chasing un winnable grievances like LOA 93 and MDA.

Are you east pilots so arrogant that you think the APA is clueless about Jerry glass? That only the hardcore east pilots understand the industry?

Why don t you get a life and fly a trip. Probably the most arrogant and sour person ever.
Reminds me of the saying " people are like wine. Some age and mellow. Others turn into vinegar...."

 

[Portly Dorman]

I don't "think" anything, with regard to the SLI with APA, I know that USAPA will be seeking a DOH methodology with C&R's (fences). How the inevitable (mandated by the MOU process) outcome of the negotiation and or arbitration turns out, is yet to be determined and you are free to "conjure up" anything you want to believe about the result. Just keep in mind that anyone who say's they "know" what the result is eventually going to be is well.......delusional.

Furthermore, from the POR forward (which is when the SLI process begins) LOA93 pay rates will be a thing of the past and our pay going foreword throughout the SLI process will be equal to APAs'.


seajay

seajay-

As it was so eloquintly stated here- We aren't the ones in bankruptcy. AWA wasn't in BK, the old USAirways was. Yet the west has paid at every turn.

Seek your DOH, 65% of the top 50% USAirways pilots??? Would you accept that?? Be honest and show your work.

 

[Piedmont1984]

seajay-

As it was so eloquintly stated here- We aren't the ones in bankruptcy. AWA wasn't in BK, the old USAirways was. Yet the west has paid at every turn.

Seek your DOH, 65% of the top 50% USAirways pilots??? Would you accept that?? Be honest and show your work.

What you mean 'we' paleface 🙂 The company may not be in BK, maybe you are not on BK wages, but I'm working under a BK contract.

 

[Portly Dorman]

Buddy, this has to do with the west also. Are you happy with a 10k pat on the head? Haven't you given up contractual improvements over the last 8 years? Doesn't this bother you that you will be slapped into a BK contract? Doesn't it bother you that you will lose profit sharing in a company that will potentially make 2 billion in profits per year? And then you'll have to pay four times as much for a Rx in copays?
All I'm saying is that this contract stinks and that there is a better deal in the 11th hour.
I'm not dwelling the past, I'm considering it in the context of the future.
There is irony in any situation if you are inclined to look for it. However, I don't place a lot of blame on east or west, but management, who have profited from our plight every day since 2005. Don't you feel used and abused? I do, and I want to make sure Parker leaves some $$ on the nightstand before he leaves the room.
NO.

You got yours already, you got $35 million x 2 paid out. AA got something more, they actually had $$ in the bank and weren't threaten with closing the doors.

Again, where was usapa in April when Dug callled on the APA?? In CLT, left out of the party. Parker didn't want the keystone NAC mucking up the works.

PS The east isn't the majority anymore. Get over it.

 

[traderjake]

In the meantime, as we negotiate with our APA counterparts over seniority integration and they ask for our payrates - which figures will we submit, LOA93 or 2002 Book Rates?

I'm sure they would submit 2002 Book Rates along with a DOH seniority list.

Like APA won't see through that one either.

 

[Portly Dorman]

First, the membership has to vote it down. If that happens, it is a clear mandate to the NAC to get something better.
Second, bring back in the Pitbull, Paul DiOrio. He has perhaps the most indepth knowledge of our contract. He was negotiating for us for how long? The company negotiators hate him - so make them deal with him. They make us deal with J. Glass.
Third, think about this: has this agreement met your expectations for our next contract? Because we could be living with it for a long time, if history is a guide. Also, this could be the best contract you'll ever see, because the next one might have MORE concessions.
What if there is a BK 2 at AA to clean up the items that weren't taken care of in BK1 (sound familiar?)? You know, Jerry Glass is helping run the show at AA....we all know his tactics personally.
Run the scenarios - don't let the big $$ signs blind you to what is really happening here.
You all know how fast your payrates can be reduced (overnight).
Clear is right, payback is a b1tch. Let management in on that concept, too.
NO.

Pitbull?? How long was he negoiating the contract?? 5, no 6, actually 7 years and how much did he get done?? Where we in the closeout session during the 'safety' campaign?? Was Jerry Glass even at the table?? (hint- Company sent him home, a waste of effort against the Keystone NAC.)

The APA has done this before, has TRAINED negoiators, they even use APLA's EF&A group (EGAD!!!)

 

[PullUp]

If we turn this down, will the creditors be on our side or the company's?

They both want this deal done. With a minimum of fuss.
Question is: how much does it take to buy your cooperation?
My answer is: What is offered is not enough.
They'll be knocking on USAPA's door the minute the rejection is tallied.
NO.

 

[PullUp]

God you're an idiot. How about this scenario? The MOU gets voted down and the Company never even contacts the NAC? It's over. What on Earth makes you think the company entertain ANY further negotiations? They don't have to. They will move fwd. You'll be on LOA93 for a couple more years. APA takes over, USCABA dies an instant, quiet death and then you get to be on the APA contract. A few years from now.

Which scenario is more logical? It makes perfect sense why East Pilots/USAPA are continually the biggest financial losers in the industry...you have no ability to perceive reality. If the situation doesn't fit your world view...which is always preconditioned that YOU are the most important aspect of anything regarding Aviation....then you spin out of control. Here's a few sobering facts for you to ponder in your completely fked up entitiled world.

1. You are an employee. You trade your time for a specific amount of money and benefit that is delivered to you without interruption. You are taking no risk...you are compensated accordingly. You should thank your lucky stars Doug Parker saved your career so you could still collect your meager living every two weeks. Frankly, it's a hell of a lot more than you deserve.

2. You get a W2. That means you're an EMPLOYEE. A worker bee. Not a partner in anything.

3. You don't matter...not at all.

It's shocking how blind some of you are. Enjoy one of your last temper tantrums. It'll be over soon enough.

Wait a minute. This has nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with the contractual group.
It's all about horse trading. We have something that Doug wants. What are we willing to take for it?
Is he taking advantage of the situation?
The old axiom of a good agreement being equally distasteful to both parties should apply here. Does it?
No, he doesn't have to come back to the table. But what are the consequences of that?
The intelligent action would be to re-negotiate a better deal. Billions of dollars will change hands with this deal, and a rejection vote would certainly throw a monkey wrench into that.
Use your leverage to get the best deal - and this ain't it. That's all I'm saying.
NO.

 

[Portly Dorman]

What you mean 'we' paleface 🙂 The company may not be in BK, maybe you are not on BK wages, but I'm working under a BK contract.

Sorry about the wages, your NC walking away didn't put any $$ in your pocket did it?? And you had your C/O seat already so you really haven't seen much.

AWA wasn't BK, yet the west (no more we) has gotten kicked every time.

Maybe we have to swallow a bad agreement to get a good one. The US/HP JNC actually looked at the west contract sections and used some of it, the pitbull gutted everything from it. The east isn't the big kid anymore, learn to love it.