Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

I find the Grievance Committee analysis both sobering and troubling. This is something that should have been made available to the rank and file long before now. I've written the NAC and leadership asking them to respond to the concerns in the report to all pilots in the short time remaining or delay the voting deadline.

I'd like to see this merger happen and get off LOA93, but I won't consent to taking a subordinate position vis a vis the AA pilots from the get go.

Why?

You expected the west pilots to take a subordinate position to the east pilots from the get go?

 

[cleardirect]

I make a distinction between confidentiality and secrecy. I understand the need to use confidentiality, but its use should be judicial and only when absolutely necessary. Furthermore, this revelation underscores the fact that this MOU was not properly vetted. We have been kept in the dark.

It's another example of the few thinking they are smarter than the many. They are not smarter, they simply have access to information which has been denied to the rank and file.

Really. You want to go with the few thinking they are smarter than the many.

So the few the grievance committee (in reality the chairman) knows more about this and the many the NAC, the BPR, the PN, the merger attorney know less than the one.

The one that wants a no vote so he puts out his opinion and you all go running around like it is the 10 commandments handed down from the mount.

But tell me this paragraph seems pretty clear to me.

18. a. This Memorandum shall become effective (the “Memorandum Approval Date&rdquo😉 upon the
date when all of the following have occurred: (i) approval by APA’s Board of Directors; (ii) approval by
US Airways' Board of Directors; and (iii) approval by AMR Corporation's Board of Directors. If all of
these approvals do not occur, this Memorandum shall be null and void in its entirety and as to all
Parties.
b. This Memorandum shall become applicable to USAPA upon the later of (i) the
10
Memorandum Approval Date; and (ii) USAPA’s Board of Pilot Representatives’ recommending that
USAPA’s membership ratify this Memorandum and USAPA’s membership’s subsequent ratification of
this Memorandum. USAPA will inform the Parties whether its Board of Pilot Representatives has
agreed to recommend that its membership ratify the MTA on or before January 4, 2013. If
recommended, the ratification vote of USAPA’s membership shall be completed no earlier than
approval of the Merger by AMR Corporation’s Board of Directors and no later than 60 days after such
approval (if any). If such recommendation and ratification do not timely occur, this Memorandum shall
be of no force or effect as to USAPA but shall remain in full force and effect as to the other parties.

Tell me.Where does it say that if this MOU gets voted down that the company has any obligation to renegotiate, increase anything or even talk to usapa? If this MOU is voted down what is the leverage to get more? If this MOU is voted down the other parties are bound by the MOU and we get to wait until the APA becomes the bargaining agent and we get to wait for them to get us what the now majority thinks is fair.

How do you think is going to work out for the US Airways pilots?

The clear choice is do we take the MOU or do we accept our current situation (LOA 93,C2004 and the T/A) for the next 12-24 months? Remember, many of you have argued that the Nicolau lives in the current T/A and the MOU kills the Nicolau.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I have spent a lot of time over the last couple weeks reading the mou and how the language is written in it. Not a lawyer by any fashion but even when compared to day to day contracts and agreements between even as small a group as 2 parties in say a home sale or an auto transaction the language in this thing is awful.

When i first received the MOU mailing initial feeling was pretty good about it. Not great but could be much worse. When i put the mailing info side by side with the actual MOU there are massive holes in it. No other way to state it.

Tempe always has and ALWAYS will exploit even the smallest error in grammer in any and all contracts. They have proven that over and over. That is the one constant that we all can count on.

I was a yes vote when I decided to not trust anybody in this process to tell me the whole scoop on this thing, east, west, or the company.

After reading this thing, the only conclusion that I can come up with is under it we will be the next TWA. Even with the new M&B process this thing puts so many land mines in our path that the company can decimate both east and west and just shruge their shoulders and say "Well, you agreed to it"

Sadly I figure it is going to pass anyhow. Too many people will read the MOU mailing like i did and say "Not great but not too bad" as I initially did and go no further.

After reading it, My feeling is if you have more than about 2 years left before retiring you are going to look back at this vote as "black friday" so to speak. Under it I figure PHX is gone, widebodies are gone, whats left of east and west will be comparible to american eagle or PSA and Piedmont. The protections as written are not anything i would trust to be valid in a small claims court, much less when they are all that stands between my livelyhood and the soup kitchen line.

Don't bother doing the same old bash and trash on here to my post, I wont be on to read it.....instead of going on an east/west pissathon post fest take that time to pull up the actual MOU and read it before friday and make your own choice. Trust me the language that you think is there from reading the MOU mailer is not. Take the time to see for yourself before friday at 2 pm and decide if the details left out of the mailer are something that will affect how you vote.

Good day and happy voting.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I did not bother reading the entire rambling report. Just this last line caught my attention.

This is paragraph 28.



How or why would usapa be liable for anything if you agree and ABIDE by arbitration? Only when you DON'T ABIDE by arbitration do you find liability? Once again usapa (east pilots) not living up to your agreements and ignore arbitration if you don't like the results.

Letter 12-05 has to do with the TWA arbitration. Again what does that have to do with usapa? NOTHING.

It is a red herring thrown in to scare the mindless followers and create no voters.

Unless the grievance committee thinks that that TWA can win a DFR lawsuit against the APA for not abiding by final and binding arbitration. But why would the grievance committee worry about the APA losing a DFR but have complete confidence that usapa will win a DFR?

Arbitrators have COMPLETE and unfettered access to "fair and equitable". Just because its in or not in the MOU doesn't mean the arbitrators have to abide by it. FAIR AND EQUITABLE HAS VERY FEW BOUNDARIES. In short, read what the courts have to say about overturning an arbitrative desicion. However, the courts have looked at arbitrator decisions as they apply to employment law and the general statistical concensus is that arbitrators find more for the company side than the employee side. FYI.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Really. You want to go with the few thinking they are smarter than the many.

So the few the grievance committee (in reality the chairman) knows more about this and the many the NAC, the BPR, the PN, the merger attorney know less than the one.

The one that wants a no vote so he puts out his opinion and you all go running around like it is the 10 commandments handed down from the mount.

But tell me this paragraph seems pretty clear to me.



Tell me.Where does it say that if this MOU gets voted down that the company has any obligation to renegotiate, increase anything or even talk to usapa? If this MOU is voted down what is the leverage to get more? If this MOU is voted down the other parties are bound by the MOU and we get to wait until the APA becomes the bargaining agent and we get to wait for them to get us what the now majority thinks is fair.

How do you think is going to work out for the US Airways pilots?

The clear choice is do we take the MOU or do we accept our current situation (LOA 93,C2004 and the T/A) for the next 12-24 months? Remember, many of you have argued that the Nicolau lives in the current T/A and the MOU kills the Nicolau.

OK. Reason.

Why an MOU and NOT a TA?

 

[end_of_alpa]

What was that about the West and name calling? Something about we hate you if you disagree... Traitor? Against what exactly?

Exhibit #6754 of typical, hypocritical Easthole.

Look at his last post. He doesn't like East pilots and he is one.

However, what if all of us, you and I, would quit CALLING each other East or West and start addressing the real issue: where do WE want the pilot profession to go? I mean, if things like longevity and leveling the playing field for all of us, why have a union? I mean, what good is ANY union?

They don't have one at Jet Blue and I think a large regional.

Why are YOU voting yes for the MOU, from a West perspective or a pilot perspective?

 

[Portly Dorman]

More selective governing.

Guess there is no code of conduct for officers or committee members.

I have my sources.

Yeah, I was wondering that, too. Where is Koontz? MIA is where most of the West pilots are.

You're right, there is no "we" in USAPA. It's US. However, there is a "WE" in WEST.

The more the EAST pilots on here figure out that WEST pilots hate everything about who you are and what you do will these issues get resolved.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I make a distinction between confidentiality and secrecy. I understand the need to use confidentiality, but its use should be judicial and only when absolutely necessary. Furthermore, this revelation underscores the fact that this MOU was not properly vetted. We have been kept in the dark.

It's another example of the few thinking they are smarter than the many. They are not smarter, they simply have access to information which has been denied to the rank and file.

Bingo. Transparency was the mantra of the CLT recall. Money well spent!

So here the very people on the Grievance committee is now coming forward. Why? The MOU is an albatross that hangs around the nec of both East and West pilots that condemn any future the bottom feeders have to a most liely life of C scale and substandard wage and woring conditions.

We had since April 2012 to coe up with a coalesing plan to thrust and parry with the APA/AMR/US Airways and what happens?

A 16 page MOU containing little more than form over substance.

Not a good why to merge a cohesive company.

 

[end_of_alpa]

More selective governing.

Guess there is no code of conduct for officers or committee members.

Yeah, like AWA ALPA operated like a well oiled machine....if you want to keep throwing stones.

 

[PullUp]

Once again in typical fashion one or more of the east pilot "leaders" a member of the BPR being ethically challenged violated confidentiality. How do you east pilots ever expect anyone to trust you when you guys can't follow simple rules or keep your word?

The president and the lawyer asked that this be kept confidential. But someone on the BPR thinks they know better and released it against legal advice.

This makes me sick that a "leader" of this union because of personal opinion after voting yes to recommend the MOU, now reverses that obligation and would try and gain no votes and kill the MOU by violating their responsibility.

Whoever released this confidential memo has no honor, ethics or integrity. If it is a CLT reps they should have been recalled. My guess that it is because they did not and now think they can do whatever they want.

Bullsh1t. USAPA was supposed to be transparent, not opaque. Open, not secretive. This is what I hated about ALPO, too. The back room deals, sales jobs by lawyers that had a stake in the outcome, and jobs promised to union leadership to bring home the bacon for the company.
I'm certainly happy this information came to light. It should have been revealed sooner. This gives me great concern about Mr. Hummel and his motivations, as well as Mr. Colello.
This confirms my suspicions that this agreement is nothing more than a short term buy-out to get rid of our contract(s) for pay increases that may or may not materialize. And if they do, they will be short lived.
If this doesn't convince the yes voters that there are holes in this thing wide enough to drive a semi through, I don't know what will.
Guys, this is an independent legal review of contract language - AND THE INFORMATION WAS WITHHELD FROM US. Time once again to do some critical reading. WHAT IS YOUR LIFE GOING TO LOOK LIKE IF THIS IS APPROVED? Short term it looks rosy, but medium to long term, it looks like a screw job. If this kind of crap were in the contracts you sign for houses, cars, etc., your lawyer would advise that you visit a sanitarium if you wanted to sign on the dotted line.
Not changing my vote now.
Big Time NO.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

OK. Reason.

Why an MOU and NOT a TA?

You have some reading to do on the USAPA website. Or at least your colorful brochure,. Its called an MTA.The merger has not been announced yet. The MOU is designed to protect us in the initial transaction and give us a seat at the table. The MTA then follows. I am amazed how many have missed the subtlety that we have a few more bites at the apple. Of cause those meek among us fear such opportunities.All we are doing it getting in the game. We can enter the game with protections and pay, or be drug in with nothing other than LOA 93 for years. I choose to play AND get paid.Greeter

 

[Piedmont1984]

The Grievance Committee report was presented to the BPR on Feb 5th. However, one day earlier on Feb 4th the BPR voted to approve the MOU and send it out with a YES recommendation. It seems to me that the report was not properly vetted by the BPR and certainly not disclosed to the membership in a timely manner in order to make an informed vote. In fact, the report was leaked - not released. We could have voted without ever knowing of its content.

The concerns and reservations articulated by the report should have been open to discussion during the roadshows. I think the BPR should delay the voting deadline.

 

[Zone5]

You have some reading to do on the USAPA website. Or at least your colorful brochure,. Its called an MTA.The merger has not been announced yet. The MOU is designed to protect us in the initial transaction and give us a seat at the table. The MTA then follows. I am amazed how many have missed the subtlety that we have a few more bites at the apple. Of cause those meek among us fear such opportunities.All we are doing it getting in the game. We can enter the game with protections and pay, or be drug in with nothing other than LOA 93 for years. I choose to play AND get paid.Greeter

Me too!


seajay

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Please notice the flurry of new "bombshells" here in the last two days of voting. Perfect timing, make accusations at the last minute hoping to snare the low info voter as he returns home from a trip.

As to our Grievance chair, who has always been personally against the MOU, please look at our success rate in that arena. We cannot even enforce our current contract. I would prefer to get paid more and have a successful Grievance Committee work on our (New AMR) issues. At any time they (APA) have less than 100 grievances pending. We simply cannot do the job, and having our chairman run to the masses with behind door discussions hurts us all. Maybe that is his goal, poison the whole process so he can stop the MOU, and stay on full FPL while he tilts at windmills and you get paid LOA 93 rates.

Also, do any of you think, at this juncture, that our Merger Counsel would be recommending this MOU if there was ANY CHANCE the NIC could be implemented upon signing? There is no chance even now, no method that breaths life into that list now. NONE.

Lets be clear, one thing the MOU does is move us all closer to ripeness. Just don't be fooled into thinking it is because of an East/West contract. That has not occurred , and barring the failure of the AMR transaction, will NEVER happen. But there is ripeness in the eventual completion of a seniority list that includes USAPA and APA pilots merged. And when that happens, ALL will be free to sue, not just a select group.

Greeter

 

[Portly Dorman]

Yeah, like AWA ALPA operated like a well oiled machine....if you want to keep throwing stones.

You right, AWA couldn't hold a candle to the back stabbing behavior of Uair, well Herb Holland could, but he had so many east friends.

And this from a former usapa flounder and member....

As Forest's mom says- Stupid is is stupid does.