Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[end_of_alpa]

You have some reading to do on the USAPA website. Or at least your colorful brochure,. Its called an MTA.The merger has not been announced yet. The MOU is designed to protect us in the initial transaction and give us a seat at the table. The MTA then follows. I am amazed how many have missed the subtlety that we have a few more bites at the apple. Of cause those meek among us fear such opportunities.All we are doing it getting in the game. We can enter the game with protections and pay, or be drug in with nothing other than LOA 93 for years. I choose to play AND get paid.Greeter

The colorful brochure wasn't accurate and even the NAC admits accepting APA numbers without first vetting the numbers. You know, trust but verify.

It's not about holding out for more. I would be happy if the language was cleaned up and vetted more with an eye towards understandability.

The point is YOU believe it is "designed" to protect us but based on the language I have too many more questions than answers regarding what you imply trusting this open ended language to be interpreted by arbitrators.

I mean, come on, how is that arbitration thing working out for any of us???

 

[end_of_alpa]

Please notice the flurry of new "bombshells" here in the last two days of voting. Perfect timing, make accusations at the last minute hoping to snare the low info voter as he returns home from a trip.

As to our Grievance chair, who has always been personally against the MOU, please look at our success rate in that arena. We cannot even enforce our current contract. I would prefer to get paid more and have a successful Grievance Committee work on our (New AMR) issues. At any time they (APA) have less than 100 grievances pending. We simply cannot do the job, and having our chairman run to the masses with behind door discussions hurts us all. Maybe that is his goal, poison the whole process so he can stop the MOU, and stay on full FPL while he tilts at windmills and you get paid LOA 93 rates.

Also, do any of you think, at this juncture, that our Merger Counsel would be recommending this MOU if there was ANY CHANCE the NIC could be implemented upon signing? There is no chance even now, no method that breaths life into that list now. NONE.

Lets be clear, one thing the MOU does is move us all closer to ripeness. Just don't be fooled into thinking it is because of an East/West contract. That has not occurred , and barring the failure of the AMR transaction, will NEVER happen. But there is ripeness in the eventual completion of a seniority list that includes USAPA and APA pilots merged. And when that happens, ALL will be free to sue, not just a select group.

Greeter

So, how has our success rate, in your estimation, stacked up in getting us anything if the arbitration process itself is bent in managements favor because of weak languange on our behalf?

In the case of seniority, did you read that a possiblity exists where we dont even operate under a single certificate?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

The Grievance Committee report was presented to the BPR on Feb 5th. However, one day earlier on Feb 4th the BPR voted to approve the MOU and send it out with a YES recommendation. It seems to me that the report was not properly vetted by the BPR and certainly not disclosed to the membership in a timely manner in order to make an informed vote. In fact, the report was leaked - not released. We could have voted without ever knowing of its content.

The concerns and reservations articulated by the report should have been open to discussion during the roadshows. I think the BPR should delay the voting deadline.

So your reps are stupid? Of course they have seen this stuff, and much MORE.All things considered they chose to send it out with a recommendation of YES.Ciabattoni had more say about the MOU in front of our pilots and the BPR than even our legal team. But now he does not rule the day and goes postal.The ENTIRE BPR, Officers, Legal, and NAC have recommended you vote yes, and you still after all these years now question the process? Actually, for the first time, as intended by the founders, professionals we pay are telling us our best course of action. You can simply listen and vote yes, or no. You will never hear as much as the BPR did, so you either trust your reps or not.Man up, stop with the indecision. Make a choice to divert or not, but get off the radio complaining about the "process." Time to vote.Greeter

 

[Portly Dorman]

There was a vote on the 4th of February?? The vote was last month, January. The polls have been open for at least a week.

Check your email timeline. O'dywer email JAN 31, date on memo 2-5-13, hummel email 2-5-13 @ 4:57.

NEWS TRAVELS fast in the usapa office......oops, leaks out fast.

The Grievance Committee report was presented to the BPR on Feb 5th. However, one day earlier on Feb 4th the BPR voted to approve the MOU and send it out with a YES recommendation. It seems to me that the report was not properly vetted by the BPR and certainly not disclosed to the membership in a timely manner in order to make an informed vote. In fact, the report was leaked - not released. We could have voted without ever knowing of its content.

The concerns and reservations articulated by the report should have been open to discussion during the roadshows. I think the BPR should delay the voting deadline.

 

[kubotapilot]

Portly, Clear, CactusBoy etc...,

Still no actual reply to my request? Though I see the superfluous East / West Rhetoric continues. I ask you again, and especially to Clear, please read the analysis and provide your non "east vs. west" advice? Setting aside any seniority issues, please tell me how you feel this new information may affect us in future years???

Thank You,

Kubota

More selective governing.

Guess there is no code of conduct for officers or committee members.

 

[dca319]

You have some reading to do on the USAPA website. Or at least your colorful brochure,. Its called an MTA.The merger has not been announced yet. The MOU is designed to protect us in the initial transaction and give us a seat at the table. The MTA then follows. I am amazed how many have missed the subtlety that we have a few more bites at the apple. Of cause those meek among us fear such opportunities.All we are doing it getting in the game. We can enter the game with protections and pay, or be drug in with nothing other than LOA 93 for years. I choose to play AND get paid.Greeter

This MoU is temporary. Why so much heartache of an agreement that will cease to exist in a few years is hard to understand. Without an MoU, the company will simply drag out the grievance process until the APA takes over and cleans up our messes for us without any input from us. Why? Why trust our future in the hands of Ciabatonni who always seems to be involved in evey one of our screw jobs only to step away at the last minute and deflect blame. Time to move forward.
And I'd hold off on the "we" stuff greeter as that seems to be a trigger word for east.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So your reps are stupid? Of course they have seen this stuff, and much MORE.All things considered they chose to send it out with a recommendation of YES.Ciabattoni had more say about the MOU in front of our pilots and the BPR than even our legal team. But now he does not rule the day and goes postal.The ENTIRE BPR, Officers, Legal, and NAC have recommended you vote yes, and you still after all these years now question the process? Actually, for the first time, as intended by the founders, professionals we pay are telling us our best course of action. You can simply listen and vote yes, or no. You will never hear as much as the BPR did, so you either trust your reps or not.Man up, stop with the indecision. Make a choice to divert or not, but get off the radio complaining about the "process." Time to vote.Greeter

I still have 50 hours of holding fuel.

 

[Piedmont1984]

There was a vote on the 4th of February?? The vote was last month, January. The polls have been open for at least a week.

Check your email timeline. O'dywer email JAN 31, date on memo 2-5-13, hummel email 2-5-13 @ 4:57.

NEWS TRAVELS fast in the usapa office......oops, leaks out fast.

You're correct. MOU approved on Jan 4th. Grievance report one month later. Details of the report leaked to membership - couple of days prior to vote deadline.

 

[nevergiveup]

This MoU is temporary. Why so much heartache of an agreement that will cease to exist in a few years is hard to understand. Without an MoU, the company will simply drag out the grievance process until the APA takes over and cleans up our messes for us without any input from us. Why? Why trust our future in the hands of Ciabatonni who always seems to be involved in evey one of our screw jobs only to step away at the last minute and deflect blame. Time to move forward.
And I'd hold off on the "we" stuff greeter as that seems to be a trigger word for east.

Do you trust our management?

 

[end_of_alpa]

I still have 50 hours of holding fuel.

Thats the ticket!

 

[traderjake]

Oh, and one more thing. The pilots like TraitorJake, the guys who tried to recall the CLT reps, will vote for the MOU out of spite and not a reasoned well thought out approach to a merger.

Says the guy who can't even vote because out of spite he quite the union he helped create.

Let's all follow his advice about "a reasoned well thought out approach".

I voted out of economic reason.

I expected the Recall woud fail.

 

[Piedmont1984]

greeter

BTW, I'm not calling our BPR stupid, but unless they are all mensa members then they are cut from the same intellectual cloth as you and I. We're not stupid either. Give us the information we need to make an informed decision. Don't treat us like we are stupid.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I still have 50 hours of holding fuel.

Of course you do. And I already diverted, got gas, and am under way to my destination.Then again, you can always do the safe thing and stay on LOA 93.By the way, as to "holding decisions" I meant in no way to question your piloting ability, and especially your flying judgment. My point is we are all good at that. Not so good at business decisions outside of flying, as in contracts and the like. Thus Professional Negotiators.Greeter

 

[nevergiveup]

I still have 50 hours of holding fuel.

I wish I had not bought a sailplane!

 

[Zone5]

Please notice the flurry of new "bombshells" here in the last two days of voting. Perfect timing, make accusations at the last minute hoping to snare the low info voter as he returns home from a trip.

As to our Grievance chair, who has always been personally against the MOU, please look at our success rate in that arena. We cannot even enforce our current contract. I would prefer to get paid more and have a successful Grievance Committee work on our (New AMR) issues. At any time they (APA) have less than 100 grievances pending. We simply cannot do the job, and having our chairman run to the masses with behind door discussions hurts us all. Maybe that is his goal, poison the whole process so he can stop the MOU, and stay on full FPL while he tilts at windmills and you get paid LOA 93 rates.

Also, do any of you think, at this juncture, that our Merger Counsel would be recommending this MOU if there was ANY CHANCE the NIC could be implemented upon signing? There is no chance even now, no method that breaths life into that list now. NONE.

Lets be clear, one thing the MOU does is move us all closer to ripeness. Just don't be fooled into thinking it is because of an East/West contract. That has not occurred , and barring the failure of the AMR transaction, will NEVER happen. But there is ripeness in the eventual completion of a seniority list that includes USAPA and APA pilots merged. And when that happens, ALL will be free to sue, not just a select group.

Greeter

Great post! I couldn't agree more. Releasing confidential working documents, in the eleventh hour, clearly in an attempt to drum up no votes, is just another example of the type of dysfunctional, backstabbing, intramural bickering that seems to pass for union representation here. Did the BPR vote unanimously to recommend the MOU or not!

The NC has not made it a secret that there are issues and problems with the MOU and that during the JCBA process there will be plenty to do in addressing those concerns, give it a rest already! :angry:


seajay