DELTA PILOT GETS IT

[AWA320]

This unedited and I have NO COMMENTARY, it is very compelling though!!!

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From ALPA Message Board ...

Subject: Alaska to merge with United
Author: XXXXXXXXX
Date: 05 Aug 2007 04:27 PM
Originally Posted: 05 Aug 2007 04:00 PM
>Alaska to
>merge with United.
>What merger policy would they use?
>
>ALPA’s EC is headed by "no decisionâ€￾ Prater while the
>airline industry continues its consolidation.

Dave-

I work for Delta so I don't have a dog in the USAir fight but I too am concerned about the actions of ALPA National on this issue.

I don't know if the "east" or the "west" is right about the merits of the Nic award but I am deeply troubled by the EC's apparent power to simply ignore their own policies and procedures.

Regardless of what they do now, Prater and the EC have demonstrated pretty clearly to the pilots of Delta, United, NWA and everybody else that the merger policy's "binding" arbitration is not quite as binding as we all thought. Evidently, an independent arbitrator's decision is always open to "further review" by ALPA politicians. If they don't like the decision they can always schedule special meetings, call for talks, issue high minded resolutions, appoint Blue Ribbon committees to study the matter, etc. etc. etc. - and basically override the process - forever if they choose.

ALPA has no merger policy. At least not one that anybody will ever respect again.

 

[nostradamus]

This unedited and I have NO COMMENTARY, it is very compelling though!!!

------------------------------------
From ALPA Message Board ...

Subject: Alaska to merge with United
Author: XXXXXXXXX
Date: 05 Aug 2007 04:27 PM
Originally Posted: 05 Aug 2007 04:00 PM
>Alaska to
>merge with United.
>What merger policy would they use?
>
>ALPA’s EC is headed by "no decisionâ€￾ Prater while the
>airline industry continues its consolidation.

Dave-

I work for Delta so I don't have a dog in the USAir fight but I too am concerned about the actions of ALPA National on this issue.

I don't know if the "east" or the "west" is right about the merits of the Nic award but I am deeply troubled by the EC's apparent power to simply ignore their own policies and procedures.

Regardless of what they do now, Prater and the EC have demonstrated pretty clearly to the pilots of Delta, United, NWA and everybody else that the merger policy's "binding" arbitration is not quite as binding as we all thought. Evidently, an independent arbitrator's decision is always open to "further review" by ALPA politicians. If they don't like the decision they can always schedule special meetings, call for talks, issue high minded resolutions, appoint Blue Ribbon committees to study the matter, etc. etc. etc. - and basically override the process - forever if they choose.

ALPA has no merger policy. At least not one that anybody will ever respect again.

And what was your point?

 

[brokenwrench]

Simple.
Binding arbitration is just that, BINDING. The fact that ALPA national has not stepped up and said so would be very troubling to me if I were an ALPA member.

 

[nostradamus]

Simple.
Binding arbitration is just that, BINDING. The fact that ALPA national has not stepped up and said so would be very troubling to me if I were an ALPA member.

Memorable quotes for
Oliver Twist (1948)


"If that's what the law supposes, sir, then the law is a ass! If that be the eyes of the law, sir, then the law is a bachelor!"

 

[flybynite]

I have talked to a number of pilots from other airlines about this issue and I can say they all have issues with this award.

They ask us nine-gazzillion questions about it and are very concerned about it being a "land mark" decision. Valid concern..

And the reason why is.....Date of Hire is not being used to intergrate the pilot's senority list. Most pilots(industry wide) think Date of Hire is the most reasonable method to intergrate the senority lists. I have to agree.

I think ALPA screwed up in a major way when they changed the language in the By Laws when came to Mergers.

And just to let you know....I have read the "Award". And in my opinion, it is based on suppossion and rumor.

I for one think it was drawn up by a first year law student/clerk that was working for Nick.

<_<

 

[767jetz]

And what was your point?

The point, oh dense one, is that while the East claims that ALPA will have a problem if they forward the list, the fact is that ALPA will have an even bigger problem if they don't forward the list and defend it very soon.

Clear enough?

 

[nostradamus]

The point, oh dense one, is that while the East claims that ALPA will have a problem if they forward the list, the fact is that ALPA will have an even bigger problem if they don't forward the list and defend it very soon.

Clear enough?

When you throw stones, you may damage your own house.

 

[nostradamus]

If you do not have time to read the article above, below is a quote from the article about United Pilots group that 767jetz belongs to.


"But the pilots were just as single-minded, especially when it came to protecting their pay and seniority.

That’s because their salary and working conditions are determined by how long they’ve been at an airline. Leaving a carrier means starting at the bottom at another airline, no matter the pilot’s level of experience.

They’ll ride that seniority number right into bankruptcy," said Wright George, 60, a recently retired pilot who went from making $72,000 as a first officer at Eastern to $24,000 as a second officer when Eastern’s demise forced him to switch to United in 1991."

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320,

If your attitude persists, and this is the attitude of the majority of the AWA pilots, then lI believe it is in the best interests of all parties to stop wasting the company's and each others time. Your group continues to thumb your nose at ALPA International, the EC, the Rice Committee, and the US Airways pilots.

Would it not be best to get rid of the angst, move on, and stop any West notion that there will ever be a joint contract because it is not going to happen.

The only way the AWA MEC will get their pilots a pay raise is to move on to Section 6 negotiations, thus, go or it!

Meanwhile, the East pilots could seek to negotiate an "equal pay for equal work agreement" or a "separate contract with separate operrations" or the majority of the East pilots may just continue their 3-engine taxi and work safely program, which could contribute to burning the company to the ground.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[UWCactus]

AWA320,

If your attitude persists, and this is the attitude of the majority of the AWA pilots, then lI believe it is in the best interests of all parties to stop wasting the company's and each others time. Your group continues to thumb your nose at ALPA International, the EC, the Rice Committee, and the US Airways pilots.

Would it not be best to get rid of the angst, move on, and stop any West notion that there will ever be a joint contract because it is not going to happen.

The only way the AWA MEC will get their pilots a pay raise is to move on to Section 6 negotiations, thus, go or it!

Meanwhile, the East pilots could seek to negotiate an "equal pay for equal work agreement" or a "separate contract with separate operrations" or the majority of the East pilots may just continue their 3-engine taxi and work safely program, which could contribute to burning the company to the ground.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

This whole issue is so reminiscent of the West FA fight with AFA policy. Why the heck didn't anybody fight this merger policy before the merger occured? It was passed a while back! If you guys are so unhappy..why don't you admit that you should have fought this battle when the merger policy was changed. That is exactly what East FA's said to West FA's when they tried to fight this battle. Now that it sucks and has a negative effect on one group...everyone is pissed. What the h#$# made you think that everything was great up until now?????

 

[USA320Pilot]

UWCactus,

Nobody likes this situation, but the reality is the vast majority of the East pilots believe ALPA Merger Policy was not followed. For example, the East pilots have a 19-year pilot with continuous service now junior to an AWA pilot who had 3 months of service, was on probation with the Company, and was an ALPA apprentice member at the time of the merger. Or there is an East pilot who has 20 years of continuous service whose pre-merger career expectation was to fly the A330 and retire number 41 on the seniority list. If the Nicolau Award is implemented this pilot will retire over 700 on the seniority list and never seen a widebody.

These two pilots will see an enormous economic loss of the Nicolau Award is implemented and will be better off economically if they live under LOA 93 and keep the two pilot groups separate for at least a decade.

Thus, the majority of the East pilots believe these type of situations violate and invalidate ALPA Merger Policy. And, for the F/A's they will likely not see a contract improvement until the Nicolau Award/Pilot contract issue is resolved because F/A negotiations always follow the pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[UWCactus]

UWCactus,

Nobody likes this situation, but the reality is the vast majority of the East pilots believe ALPA Merger Policy was not followed. For example, the East pilots have a 19-year pilot with continuous service now junior to an AWA pilot who had 3 months of service, was on probation with the Company, and was an ALPA apprentice member at the time of the merger. Or there is an East pilot who has 20 years of continuous service whose pre-merger career expectation was to fly the A330 and retire number 41 on the seniority list. If the Nicolau Award is implemented this pilot will retire over 700 on the seniority list and never seen a widebody.

These two pilots will see an enormous economic loss of the Nicolau Award is implemented and will be better off economically if they live under LOA 93 and keep the two pilot groups separate for at least a decade.

Thus, the majority of the East pilots believe these type of situations violate and invalidate ALPA Merger Policy. And, for the F/A's they will likely not see a contract improvement until the Nicolau Award/Pilot contract issue is resolved because F/A negotiations always follow the pilots.

Regards,


USA320Pilot

There are no guarantees in career expectations. You should already have known that after working at US Airways pre-merger. I'm not saying that I agree with the award, but it appears to me that you can't enter into binding arbitration after many efforts of reaching an agreement and then "balk" at the decision. Whats the point of going to binding arbitration? Believe me, i'm certain West pilots would be fighting if it went the other way, but at the same time...ALPA merger policy is fuzzy. You should have thought about this when the merger policy was changed. How did it reach this point?

Unfortunately I don't believe that East pilots have a lot of sympathy no matter who tackles this. If you were to put the facts out to public opinion, i don't think East would win. Any reasonable person would look at this and say "I think the award is flawed" however, they tried to agree on a way to integrate seniority, they could not agree on integration, therefore they enter into binding arbitration and must accept the outcome of that. Acceptance is a condition of entering into binding arbitration. Just an opinion. Face it, your people let you down.

 

[Junebug172]

Would it not be best to get rid of the angst, move on, and stop any West notion that there will ever be a joint contract because it is not going to happen.

Or how about this.

Put a stop to any notion that:

1. The Nicolau Award will ever be thrown out. It won't.

2. Your idiotic lawsuit will go anywhere. You're wasting your money.

3. A significant amount of your pilots are willing to live under LOA 93 for much longer. They aren't and will vote in a TA as soon as its presented to the pilot group.

4. The your decertification will happen. If it hasn't already happened, it never will.

Once again you fail to look at the long history your pilot group has. You've failed on DOH, pay parity, overturning the Nicolau award, and you'll continue to fail.

Your MEC panders you and you guys eat it up.

And as for your "majority", I have yet to see it. I had 3 RONs in CLT and 1 in PHL in July. In CLT, I spoke with a crew coming from the training center to the BW on two of the RONs and bumped into at the smokehouse across the street. None were interested in decertification and none had any ill will towards the West.

And PHL? Nothing but nods and "how are ya's" from those guys.

 

[nostradamus]

Once again you fail to look at the long history your pilot group has.

Recent America West Pilots quotes,


"US Airways pilots were enjoying industry-leading pay, a defined pension plan (something we never had), work rules -- everything"

"I made mine to work at America West, which, by the way, has historically been the LOWEST paid airline in the U.S. The East pilots have been paid far and above what America West pilots have been paid over the same period of time doing the same job."

America West Pilots admiting undercutting the pay of Usairways pilots

 

[Junebug172]

Recent America West Pilots quotes,
"US Airways pilots were enjoying industry-leading pay, a defined pension plan (something we never had), work rules -- everything"

"I made mine to work at America West, which, by the way, has historically been the LOWEST paid airline in the U.S. The East pilots have been paid far and above what America West pilots have been paid over the same period of time doing the same job."

America West Pilots admiting undercutting the pay of Usairways pilots

And, Mr. Pot?

The east doesn't even get crew meals anymore. What are they leading with LOA93?

Oh, sorry. A crew meal is food the pilots get from catering. We eat it on the airplane.