Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012
- Thread starter BABABOOY
- Start date
Kev3188
Veteran
The cult of personality is alive and well at the Widget...
Kev the Deltoids will never understand what we at NW have gone thorough as far as mgmt is concerned. Now to be fair they only have the present to go by as far as Richard Anderson is concerned. But I work with a lot of former DL guys and even after the ass kicking they got there is a certain amount of Kool Aid they still drink. Hopefully it all works out for you guys and hopefully tricky dick the leopard has changed his spots.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
Let's be honest... , labor relations in the airline industry have sunk to new lows in the past decade as airline's moved thru BK - and this in an industry that even in the regulated era was marked by labor-mgmt strife far worse than in most industries. With all due respect, NW's labor-mgmt relations were far more typical of the industry than DL's.
Any member of mgmt at network airlines is suspect when it comes to labor-mgmt relations - you can read that on just about any forum here.
While not giving him any kind of pass, didn't Anderson leave NW during the worst of NW's cuts and BK?
.
Regardless, PMNW people have reason to be doubtful of mgmt - but it also needs to be considered that mgmt can and does adapt to different circumstances.... DL has enjoyed labor relations that have been better than average for the industry (which isn't a terribly high bar) and those labor relations have translated into strategic flexibility that esp. post 9/11 has allowed DL to adapt to very rapidly moving market conditions.
.
You can look at the success of CO and WN during the regulated era and DL before deregulation and then again post BK to see that labor flexibility is only as good as the strategic vision a company has and the ability of mgmt to execute strategies that benefit all stakeholders. The traditional airline industry mindset of "us vs. them" is not necessary if the pie is growing for everyone.
DL employees will win BECAUSE the company continues to find ways to generate new revenues and to exit/reduce its presence in markets/strategies that no longer make sense.
.
DL employees will continue to support mgmt as long as they believe their personal success comes when the company succeeds. There are many examples in the airline industry as well as general business where employees and mgmt have figured out to win together.
Any member of mgmt at network airlines is suspect when it comes to labor-mgmt relations - you can read that on just about any forum here.
While not giving him any kind of pass, didn't Anderson leave NW during the worst of NW's cuts and BK?
.
Regardless, PMNW people have reason to be doubtful of mgmt - but it also needs to be considered that mgmt can and does adapt to different circumstances.... DL has enjoyed labor relations that have been better than average for the industry (which isn't a terribly high bar) and those labor relations have translated into strategic flexibility that esp. post 9/11 has allowed DL to adapt to very rapidly moving market conditions.
.
You can look at the success of CO and WN during the regulated era and DL before deregulation and then again post BK to see that labor flexibility is only as good as the strategic vision a company has and the ability of mgmt to execute strategies that benefit all stakeholders. The traditional airline industry mindset of "us vs. them" is not necessary if the pie is growing for everyone.
DL employees will win BECAUSE the company continues to find ways to generate new revenues and to exit/reduce its presence in markets/strategies that no longer make sense.
.
DL employees will continue to support mgmt as long as they believe their personal success comes when the company succeeds. There are many examples in the airline industry as well as general business where employees and mgmt have figured out to win together.
southwind
Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 7,709
- Reaction score
- 3,928
As well as the never-ending discontent of "former" union members !
Kev3188
Veteran
Well, sometimes ya gotta touch the coffee pot to know it's warm. If we all get burned again, it won't be from lack of warning... Time'll tell...
After ALL of these years.................NOTHING has ever been built BETTER................that can prevent Management....................from FIRING an employee..Over a "personality CONFLICT",......Than a........... U N I O N !!
southwind, if such time comes, please let me know !
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
No, Tom, the best defense against any type of prejudicial job actions is a WRITTEN job performance evaluation which the employee must read, acknowledge, and has an opportunity to comment on - regardless of whether the job is union or non-union. Further, if the company provides written notification and a written process for improving performance, then whatever issues that might arise that have the potential to result in termination are known and can be addressed.
.
If an employee has a job performance evaluation showing a satisfactory or above level of work and has not received written notification of a performance related issue, then courts will readily side with the employee in a legal case.
The only case where courts will side with the company and allow the process of performance based evaluation to be set aside is if there is a reduction in force - and then the company must show that they have used a process for RIF similar to what they have used in the past - ie almost entirely seniority and location based in the airline industry.
.
BTW, Delta Air Lines along with many large companies uses this type of evaluation process on at least an annual basis and a performance improvement process as needed for all non-contract employees.
.
If an employee has a job performance evaluation showing a satisfactory or above level of work and has not received written notification of a performance related issue, then courts will readily side with the employee in a legal case.
The only case where courts will side with the company and allow the process of performance based evaluation to be set aside is if there is a reduction in force - and then the company must show that they have used a process for RIF similar to what they have used in the past - ie almost entirely seniority and location based in the airline industry.
.
BTW, Delta Air Lines along with many large companies uses this type of evaluation process on at least an annual basis and a performance improvement process as needed for all non-contract employees.
"The only case where courts will side with the company "
So wrong, by the time a court gets your case your long gone. Toms' post said PREVENT, big difference there. I have worked both sides, and while the company you for can make a huge difference in how employees are treated when the time comes a non union employee is screwed. While things like theft, sleeping, drugs or alcohol, fighting will usually get you walked out the door in a union situation, personal conflicts with management most often don't end in termination.
In other words most union employees don't have to be management lap dogs to keep their jobs.
So wrong, by the time a court gets your case your long gone. Toms' post said PREVENT, big difference there. I have worked both sides, and while the company you for can make a huge difference in how employees are treated when the time comes a non union employee is screwed. While things like theft, sleeping, drugs or alcohol, fighting will usually get you walked out the door in a union situation, personal conflicts with management most often don't end in termination.
In other words most union employees don't have to be management lap dogs to keep their jobs.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
Non-union employees don't have to be management lap dogs to keep their jobs either... they just have to do the job which is described for their job and use the evaluation process that is provided as a barometer of how well he/she is doing and make adjustments accordingly. There are indeed laws to protect against unfair termination and given that DL, which is the context being used here, has a seniority based RIF process, any terminations outside of that guideline should be interpreted as having been fired with cause - and the company should have documentation to prove that it fired someone with cause. If the employee did not receive any documentation ever showing that there was a performance problem and wasn't counseled over a period of time and in writing for an issue (other than for something clearly illegal for which the company can terminate immediately), then the employee should see a good employment lawyer and they should be able to collect their lost salary, plus damages, and their job back.
.
The notion that people are indiscriminately fired at airlines - which have very specific guidelines for what should be done in a job and very specific processes for termination - RIF or other - is simply incorrect- and the vast majority of employees know it.
.
By the same token and specific to this topic, airlines have specific pay scales for specific frontline jobs and an emploiyee who does not fall within the established scale and who hasn't been provided with an appropriate justification as to why his/her pay is not on the scale should also see a lawyer.
.
The notion that Delta or any other airline, for a union or non-union frontline job, indiscriminately imposes actions on employees without cause is just not supported by reality - and is almost always accompanied by a lot more details that the employee has not shared but which the company most certainly would be prepared to bring out in court.
But if there is any doubt, see a lawyer... they will be more than happy to go to work for an employee who thinks he/she has been wronged - and if the company was indeed wrong, the company will end up paying the bill.
.
The notion that people are indiscriminately fired at airlines - which have very specific guidelines for what should be done in a job and very specific processes for termination - RIF or other - is simply incorrect- and the vast majority of employees know it.
.
By the same token and specific to this topic, airlines have specific pay scales for specific frontline jobs and an emploiyee who does not fall within the established scale and who hasn't been provided with an appropriate justification as to why his/her pay is not on the scale should also see a lawyer.
.
The notion that Delta or any other airline, for a union or non-union frontline job, indiscriminately imposes actions on employees without cause is just not supported by reality - and is almost always accompanied by a lot more details that the employee has not shared but which the company most certainly would be prepared to bring out in court.
But if there is any doubt, see a lawyer... they will be more than happy to go to work for an employee who thinks he/she has been wronged - and if the company was indeed wrong, the company will end up paying the bill.
Kev3188
Veteran
Too true. Of course, this company doesn't always fire people, either; they just suspend them indefinitely (without pay), hoping to win a war of attrition. Can't fight an wrongful termination until you're, you know, actually terminated.
Without representation, due process is gone from the workplace, and you are guilty until proven innocent, instead of the other way around.
Back to the original topic; I suspect there will be a direct correlation between how large the supposed July increase is, and how far along the current card drives are. If they have a lot of momentum, it'll be correspondingly large. If they don't, not so much. It's a brilliant play by mgmt to throw a distracting carrot out there 7 months in advance...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
Whatever status they want to call it, if you are not being given the opportunity to earn the paycheck for which they hired you and they can't demonstrate in writing why they have done what they did, see a lawyer. If it is really an offense for which there is no justification, there should be little difficulty proving them wrong.
.
.
southwind
Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 7,709
- Reaction score
- 3,928
Again, I will state, for the record, I personally know of two people , one who's been walked out 3 times, badges confiscated, who are "still" employed by Delta, due to the current resolution boards findings and they didn't have to pay them any type of monthly dues to accomplish it ! 😱
What makes you think Delta needs a carrot , to keep unions out ? They sure as hell didn't need one recently, when the unions were voted out !
Kev3188
Veteran
You need to brush up on your labor law... An at will employee can be terminated for any reason, at any time- except for items involving public policy.
Another brilliant missive from the board's resident genius. Did you forget the base rate increases that came last October?
