Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012

[WorldTraveler]

You need to brush up on your labor law... An at will employee can be terminated for any reason, at any time- except for items involving public policy.

Hi Kevin,
that is true... but Delta DOES have an evaluation and performance improvement process. If it isn't followed, if an employee is terminated or even suspended w/o demonstrated cause, then there are indeed legal recourses that can be pursued in court.
The notion that a company can just terminate someone w/o cause or notice and not pay a price just doesn't exist.
If you or someone you know has been falsely accused or treated, get a lawyer and get the money you deserve. Courts are NOT sympathetic to large corporations who abuse power.
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Further, there are hundreds of unresolved grievances filed against companies by unions and many of them involve things that are done against employees that should not occur. The notion that a union can stop or reverse an abuse of power by a company is also not supported by plenty of evidence...
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I don't really care what mechanism is used... if you believe a union can serve the task, go for it... I think labor laws and the courts are more than powerful enough to correct whatever abuses do occur - and the courts can demand payment of penalties and wages - unions cannot.

With all due respect, this argument was used during the representation campaigns but there were not enough people who believed this threat to be real enough combined w/ other issues for them to vote for a union.
If the company abuses power and the people did not vote for a union and it is shown that the union could have helped, then the people have only themselves to blame.
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But let's also remember that of the 4 network carriers that filed for BK in the 2000s, DL had a smaller percentage of its workforce RIFd than any of the other 3. Unions didn't do anything to stop the bloodbath particularly at UA and US which lost about 50% of their workforces.

 

[Kev3188]

Hi Kevin,
that is true... but Delta DOES have an evaluation and performance improvement process. If it isn't followed, if an employee is terminated or even suspended w/o demonstrated cause, then there are indeed legal recourses that can be pursued in court.

Sure it exists. And it's absolutely irrelevant in this context. Not sure why you keep bringing it up. Just as an employee is free to sever their relationship with a company, so too is an employer free to terminate an employee at any time, regardless of how thier previous evaluations went.

Further, there are hundreds of unresolved grievances filed against companies by unions and many of them involve things that are done against employees that should not occur. The notion that a union can stop or reverse an abuse of power by a company is also not supported by plenty of evidence...

Wrong.

I don't really care what mechanism is used... if you believe a union can serve the task, go for it... I think labor laws and the courts are more than powerful enough to correct whatever abuses do occur - and the courts can demand payment of penalties and wages - unions cannot.

Wrong again.

 

[WorldTraveler]

one more and I'm outta here for the night... but I'll pick up tomorrow...

actually, you noted unresolved grievances by DL during the first months of the merger even though the contracts remained in force. I am also aware of unresolved grievances of other airlines.
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I can assure you that if you were fired at DL in a "right to work state" w/o cause and the company could not produce documents showing that you were warned, a lawyer could win the case. DL DOES HAVE an annual evaluation process and it isn't just because they want to keep your performance moving forward. It is to protec their butt if they decide to can you.
I can assure you that I know of people who DL wanted to can and the process of doing so was long and arduous.
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But I'm curious as to know why the concern? Do you have insights that DL is about ready to crack down on a group of people - attempting to seek revenge for the representation process?

 

[Kev3188]

I can assure you that if you were fired at DL in a "right to work state" w/o cause and the company could not produce documents showing that you were warned, a lawyer could win the case. DL DOES HAVE an annual evaluation process and it isn't just because they want to keep your performance moving forward.

...And I can assure you that you are incorrect...

Again, under at-will employment-Dl or not- a company can terminate your employment at any time, for any reason (except public policy issues).

Your continued insistence on bringing up evals is at best a red herring. IOW, in this context, they do. not. matter.

 

[southwind]

You need to brush up on your labor law... An at will employee can be terminated for any reason, at any time- except for items involving public policy.




Another brilliant missive from the board's resident genius. Did you forget the base rate increases that came last October?

Welcome to Georgia Boy, where you aren't "forced to join a union" in order to obtain employment...............Yeehaw !
Just think of how many people could be working in S.C. (a right to work state) for Boeing, if not for "Union Interference" !

Dude, it wouldn't matter when DL hands out raises.................it's still all a conspiracy in the union handbook !

 

[WorldTraveler]

...And I can assure you that you are incorrect...

Again, under at-will employment-Dl or not- a company can terminate your employment at any time, for any reason (except public policy issues).

Your continued insistence on bringing up evals is at best a red herring. IOW, in this context, they do. not. matter.

good morning, Kevin.
DL and other companies that have a presence in the majority of states - under various types of legal law - do not have multiple sets of HR procedures customized for each state. Because that would be the fastest way to admit that the law - and not a sense of justice by the company is what determines the process a company can use to terminate an employee.
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DL and other multi-state companies have ONE set of domestic HR procedures and they conform to the standard that could be applied in any state.
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But, as well, the notion that a union can stop a termination or employment action is simply not supported by reality - including incidents on which you have commented.
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But let's step back once again and examine your argument that there are INDEED multiple sets of processes that DL COULD use depending on the state of work of the employee.... the strongest labor laws are in the states where unions also are strongest... or the states where NW had the largest number of employees, ie the Great Lakes and bordering states from MN to MI... yes or no?
So it would seem that it is the PMDL employees in "at will" states using your term esp. GA where close to half of DL's domestic workforce is based are the ones who don't have the legal protection but also didn't vote in a union. Logical?
So why would those people be so stupid if DL could fire them at will - and did so with much greater frequency than people who worked in states with stronger labor laws...do you not think that news of such treatment would travel very fast and be exactly the fuel for a union drive.
In other words, is this something you are concerned about based on real events or because it is an academic discussion not based on reality? And it is indeed because DL has not resorted to this type of picking off employees based on states that their employees do not see a need for any special treatment.
Just like Chris P's concern about DL maintenance operations in Mexico based on security concerns, while potential real academic, there are genuinely real events which can be used to shape minds... and I believe that is what influenced DL people's minds when they voted.
So my question remains, why the concern?

 

[Kev3188]

Welcome to Georgia Boy, where you aren't "forced to join a union" in order to obtain employment...............Yeehaw !
Just think of how many people could be working in S.C. (a right to work state) for Boeing, if not for "Union Interference" !

Dude, it wouldn't matter when DL hands out raises.................it's still all a conspiracy in the union handbook !

Boy? Really?!

You continue to set the bar lower on this board. Well done. Please, continue to post.

Back to the matter at hand; are you really so dense as to not see that you are confalting two different things? This latest tangent is not about a closed shop vs. RTW per se. It is about being at will-and it's potential consequences vs. due process afforded under a legally binding agreement. I realize that w/o a lot of pictures that may escape you, but hopefully, someone down there can help you out. You can start by reading the first paragraph of the HRPM on our company website.

DL and other multi-state companies have ONE set of domestic HR procedures and they conform to the standard that could be applied in any state.

That's right; one HR policy governing the entire nation. No one said otherwise.

But, as well, the notion that a union can stop a termination or employment action is simply not supported by reality - including incidents on which you have commented.

That's still wrong, no matter how many posts you wind up writing.

You can save your "I'll post 'til I win by attrition" technique for someone like BoeingBoy, who'll play.

One last time: With at will employment, just as an employee is free to resign their employment at anytime for any reason, so too is the company free to terminate the employment of any employee at any time and for any reason, save public policy issues.

 

[WorldTraveler]

That's right; one HR policy governing the entire nation. No one said otherwise.



That's still wrong, no matter how many posts you wind up writing.

You can save your "I'll post 'til I win by attrition" technique for someone like BoeingBoy, who'll play.

One last time: With at will employment, just as an employee is free to resign their employment at anytime for any reason, so too is the company free to terminate the employment of any employee at any time and for any reason, save public policy issues.

and you still refuse to acknowledge what your real concern is other than perhaps to debate an issue which really doesn't matter.
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The fact is that DL employees - the entire group - chose NOT to be represented by a union. If they believed there was a credible threat to their employment and that a union could help their cause, they would have voted for a union.
So we have two choices... either what the unions can actually deliver is a whole lot less than what they promise, the issue is purely an academic argument point that really has no merit in real life... and I suppose we could add a third - that the DL employees are too stupid to know what is about ready to hit them - and if that is the case, then let the company do what it wants to - and then people like you can stand on the sidelines laughing - if it really happens.
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But since the company is apparently willing to BUY employee loyalty with higher pay (how absolutely low of them), then maybe these fears of employee abuse are really quite overblown.
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and after multiple mergers and asset acquisitions in DL's history, maybe the end result for the PMNW employees will be no different than it was for all of the rest - those who want to can integrate fully and receive the full benefits of any other employee. And the company will forever reflect a part of the culture of NW, just as it reflects unique aspects of the culture of employees from previous mergers and acqusitions.

 

[NYCDelta]

You need to brush up on your labor law... An at will employee can be terminated for any reason, at any time- except for items involving public policy.




Another brilliant missive from the board's resident genius. Did you forget the base rate increases that came last October?

At will or not, it is not easy to just terminate an employee. Everything must be documented and you need a paper trail a mile long. I'm speaking from personal experience in management with an HR degree, and as a current employee in a non-union hospital. We had a nurse that was caught stealing narcotics and the company sent her to rehab and she is still employed-and we don't have a union contract. During my stint in management at DL, I would "coach" employees numerous times before they were actually terminated (2 under my watch). This was after 3-5 years of coaching and documenting the issue (which the employee signs). Barring an employee physically assaulting someone on company property, it's not nearly as easy as you seem to believe. I get tired of pulling the weight of a few slackers at my current job and wish they were gone-but management just keeps slapping them on the wrist and documenting every incident with the hopes of someday, years from now, they can get rid of them.

 

[2BlacknBlue]

...And I can assure you that you are incorrect...

Again, under at-will employment-Dl or not- a company can terminate your employment at any time, for any reason (except public policy issues).

Your continued insistence on bringing up evals is at best a red herring. IOW, in this context, they do. not. matter.

Amen! Kev, you are right on. And one step further, they can write anything on your eval, you write your rebuttal, and bad ish happens to you anyway. Professed recipient on this end!

 

[2BlacknBlue]

At will or not, it is not easy to just terminate an employee. Everything must be documented and you need a paper trail a mile long.

No sir nyc.....just saw many walked out Oct 1st, some that have never had a bad eval until THIS one! Hell one employee's start time was 630, but he came in everyday @ 530, for years! Very conscience employee I've known for 15 years, walked out.....Downsizing the department-GOTTA GO!

 

[DAL Mech]

No sir nyc.....just saw many walked out Oct 1st, some that have never had a bad eval until THIS one!

Where did this happen?

 

[southwind]

Where did this happen?

Listening to the crickets chirp again !

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Listening to the crickets chirp again !

TechOps....and I don't live on this board like u do sowfwind!

 

[WorldTraveler]

I too would like to know the details of what happened but the reality is that we probably will never know both sides of the story - and probably shouldn't since it involves someone's personal employment issues.
But I still would say that there is enough in what has been said to raise eyebrows - and talking with a labor lawyer is in order - esp. since there are multiple people involved.
DL does have an evaluation and a performance improvement process and if those processes were not followed, there should be a good reason why - or it should be fairly easy to win a case against DL.
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but let's also note that there is a difference between downsizing which unions have not been able to counter - up to 50% of some airline staff have been reduced over the past decade even among unionized employee groups - and termination.
DL did publicly state that it intended to reduce its workforce, undoubtedly filed the appropriate paperwork with the government authorities and made them available to employees and advised them in briefings of the possible staffing reductions (again if this process wasn't followed there could be grounds for a lawsuit), and then force ranked employees based on the quality of their work. Just because you were well ranked at one time does not mean you will be ranked equally well in future rankings.
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There still should be some indication of what issues the company found w/ one's work - and they do not have to drag the process out for years.

But a planned reduction in staff and a forced ranking is legal... and unions are not capable of stopping downsizing. In a unionized environment, the chances are much higher than the reductions would be in reverse seniority order while in a non-union environment, merit is more likely to be the deciding factor.