Kev3188
Veteran
That doesn't mean it hasn't, can't, or won't occur...
Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012
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That doesn't mean it hasn't, can't, or won't occur...
So DL management consults you on every termination case?
You must be a real busy man since Delta has employees all over the USA.
WorldTraveler
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I didn't bob or weave anything.... I noted that neither the AFA or any other union can claim that they were responsible for implementing the change because it was made by the US government - and frankly should have been done. I'm glad the unions got onboard w/ that campaign but it doesn't mean that the change happened only because the unions jumped on it.
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What I posted and what you and others don't want to acknowledge is that the reason why union membership is on the decline is because American workers see no meaningful value being added by the unions - at least not worth the really very miniminal cost of dues - Americans spend far more on other far less consequential activities than what it take to have a union represent them.
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American workers are not swayed by arguments of "look what we did 10 years ago (although we can't really prove that we did it by ourselves)" or as insurance against something that MIGHT happen - but based on the available evidence might or might not.
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A few people tried to turn a thread about pay raises into a union discussion in an attempt to argue one more time that a union does have value.
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The simple fact is that DL employees were some of the highest paid in the industry during the regulated era and current DL mgmt is returning to the same strategy again - perhaps if for no other reason to solidify DL's position in the minds of fence sitters should another election come up... or perhaps because DL intends to "go shopping" again and wants to make sure it can win another set of votes... or because it gave the pilots contractually agreed to pay raises and doesn't want non-contract employees to think that the pilots are getting anything better because they have a union.
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DL employees weren't moved that unions could deliver a better economic package than what DL could deliver on its own and they apparently weren't scared enough about job security issues to believe a union could help in that regard either.
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The choice, then, is for labor to figure out how to beat DL at a game which DL has perfected or decide that the labor movement really can't win at DL and then move on.... given that labor representation campaigns at other airlines and companies overall haven't yielded much if any new membership, it would appear that the labor movement needs to regroup and figure out what it needs to do to pluck itself off the mat or face the very soon coming obsolescence of labor unions in the USA.
Kev3188
Veteran
Incorrect.
One doesn't have to look far to see the company's stated goal is "industry standard," not "industry leading."
WorldTraveler
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completely agree... but I don't think DL even in the regulated era said that its goal was to pay its people above average. They just did it because actions speak louder than words and created the unexpected surprise that you were paid above average. Further, as you have noted, DL's pay may not be above average for some employees if you factor in full benefit costs. For other employees who weigh benefits differently and who are at different places on the pay scale, the comparison to peers is more favorable.
In the same way it is pretty well known that in reality that DL people DON'T get walked out the door without some sort of due process even though there is nothing that obligates them to do so. Does that mean DL people NEVER get fired and win every case against the company? absolutely not. But the notion that unions can prevent terminations and layoffs of the same type that happen at DL is just not supported by any credible evidence. The fact that the other 3 airlines that also filed for BK in the 2000s laid off a higher percentage of employees than DL did and that DL employees have recovered more, faster than their peers might have something to do with the fact that DL employees believe they have fared as well or better without a union as other airline employees have with one.
Kev3188
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WorldTraveler
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because we can agree on the basic facts, but the implications of them or what goes beyond those facts goes in different directions. I try to build commonality where I can but I don't compromise the truth in the final analysis.
Actually, Kev, I HAVEN'T seen a viable explanation of how labor unions save jobs overall and I would dearly LOVE to see one - and if you can produce one showing that labor unions were more effective at other carriers than they were at DL, I would bet the IAM and AFA would pay you very handsomely and elevate you to a position of considerable authority - which is exactly what you should receive if you could show these things.
That type of analysis is exactly what the labor union needs to present in order to demonstrate that it truly can deliver value to workers. DL - and many PMNW people - did not believe it nor have employees at other airlines such as B6 and VX who have voted on whether to become unionized or not.
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I would LOVE to be convinced - and I would love for you - one who is as passionate about the cause as anyone - and one who has some of the best communication skills - to do so.
Actually, Kev, I HAVEN'T seen a viable explanation of how labor unions save jobs overall and I would dearly LOVE to see one - and if you can produce one showing that labor unions were more effective at other carriers than they were at DL, I would bet the IAM and AFA would pay you very handsomely and elevate you to a position of considerable authority - which is exactly what you should receive if you could show these things.
That type of analysis is exactly what the labor union needs to present in order to demonstrate that it truly can deliver value to workers. DL - and many PMNW people - did not believe it nor have employees at other airlines such as B6 and VX who have voted on whether to become unionized or not.
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I would LOVE to be convinced - and I would love for you - one who is as passionate about the cause as anyone - and one who has some of the best communication skills - to do so.
Unions do save jobs and prevents layoffs, ask Kevin about what NW wanted and what they got in layoffs compared to DL in both their respective bankruptcy cases.
And I know for a fact with the use of the HPWO we saved jobs at US plenty of times, just like at Harley-Davidson, the IAM turned that company around.
But dont let the facts get in your way.
And I know for a fact with the use of the HPWO we saved jobs at US plenty of times, just like at Harley-Davidson, the IAM turned that company around.
But dont let the facts get in your way.
NYCDelta
Senior
That case was over 10 years ago now, but if I recall ALPA actually went to bat first before AFA ever did anything. We weren't AFA so they didn't have to do anything at all. Even so, I would bet money that any good labor attorney could have gotten her reinstated-it would have just cost her a lot of money. The test wasn't positive for drugs, it came back from the lab as "not consistent" with human urine.
WorldTraveler
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700,
Unions have allowed the deck to be reshuffled which has meant that some locations remained opened that the company might have otherwise closed - but something else was given up elsewhere.
Companies approach their unions with the mindset of negotiating an agreement - and they do indeed provide some response to what the union seeks. But I still have yet to see any evidence that the total number of jobs or the cuts that were made by groups represented by unions are any less than the total cuts made by groups with which mgmt deals directly with - and with which there is no need to negotiate how the pieces are moved around.
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As for the FA case, to be honest with you, regardless of the airline, the FA should have been reinstated pending completion of another urine test - problem is that it is kind of hard to do a random urine test on someone who doesn't work for the company any longer.
But it is also true that the company did what was right under the law that existed at the time... the fact that the law did not provide a mechanism for reverification does not make the company - whichever one it was - at fault. In fact, the company could well have been legally at fault if it DID not act on a urine sample which did not meet requirements for normalcy when the law did not provide for such exceptions.
I also haven't seen any evidence that DL was any more discriminatory in these types of situations than any other airline.... or that any other union was successful at reinstating employees subjected to the same error. It would appear that because unions were so involved that it was a widespread problem.
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Picking out antecdotal evidence to create a case showing what unions have done won't win the argument.
Until labor can demonstrate its own worth to the voters and people who actually pay their dues - or have the potential to do so, then the labor movement will continue to shrink.
If the evidence is really there that unions save jobs and are able to obtain higher salaries, then it should be no trouble convincing employees who have to decide whether to unionize or not.
For many years, they haven't been convinced.
Labor's future requires them to win the case.
Unions have allowed the deck to be reshuffled which has meant that some locations remained opened that the company might have otherwise closed - but something else was given up elsewhere.
Companies approach their unions with the mindset of negotiating an agreement - and they do indeed provide some response to what the union seeks. But I still have yet to see any evidence that the total number of jobs or the cuts that were made by groups represented by unions are any less than the total cuts made by groups with which mgmt deals directly with - and with which there is no need to negotiate how the pieces are moved around.
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As for the FA case, to be honest with you, regardless of the airline, the FA should have been reinstated pending completion of another urine test - problem is that it is kind of hard to do a random urine test on someone who doesn't work for the company any longer.
But it is also true that the company did what was right under the law that existed at the time... the fact that the law did not provide a mechanism for reverification does not make the company - whichever one it was - at fault. In fact, the company could well have been legally at fault if it DID not act on a urine sample which did not meet requirements for normalcy when the law did not provide for such exceptions.
I also haven't seen any evidence that DL was any more discriminatory in these types of situations than any other airline.... or that any other union was successful at reinstating employees subjected to the same error. It would appear that because unions were so involved that it was a widespread problem.
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Picking out antecdotal evidence to create a case showing what unions have done won't win the argument.
Until labor can demonstrate its own worth to the voters and people who actually pay their dues - or have the potential to do so, then the labor movement will continue to shrink.
If the evidence is really there that unions save jobs and are able to obtain higher salaries, then it should be no trouble convincing employees who have to decide whether to unionize or not.
For many years, they haven't been convinced.
Labor's future requires them to win the case.
Kev3188
Veteran
Won't matter...
For many on here, if they haven't seen it (or refuse to), then it didn't occur. 'Course, since most all of it is public record, it'd be easy to see, but I guess it's even easier still to deny it...
Yes, it would've. If she'd be represented at the time, all of those legal resources would have been available to her as part of her being a member.
All one has to do is look at what NW wanted vs. what the end run was with all of the represented groups to see that the above is incorrect.
No, they only bowed under pressure from ALPA, then the AFA, and maybe most importantly, the court of public opinion; this was a *huge* story in the local media when it occurred.
This idea that the company would've naturally done the right thing "just because," is false. The truth is, w/o any of the exposure from the above parties, she would've been tossed to the curb, and been on her own to try and fight her way back in the door.
Actually, in my experience, anecdotal evidence is the strongest case someone can make. People's eyes gloss over at flyers from the IAM or AFA, but when it's a personalized story told in a breakroom/galley/wherever, then it starts to resonate. Facts tell, stories sell...
Organized labor demonstrated it's worth to me and hundreds of others daily for several years at the Red Tail.
That data is out there, too-and quite easy to find. You of all people know where to look to see it.
WorldTraveler
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no actually, Kevin, I apparently don't know where to find the case you want to build because I haven't seen it.
Your assertion that the unions saved jobs overall should be demonstratable... show me the documents that say that labor actually cut the total price NW intended to make - not what they negotiated down from their publicly announced positions before.
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And then show me that unions categorically can add more income to its employees relative to what they could get anywhere else.
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I had no idea how the FA case turned out so I'm glad to hear she apparently was reinstated. I didn't say the company would have done the right thing on its own. I said they probably did what was right - required of them - under the law that existed at the time.
And specific to this case, how many other airline employees were subjected to this same problem - and how many were non-union vs union and restored (the total number involved should mirror the total airline employee population while to validate your position, the percentage of union employees should have improved relative to the non-union employees. Show me the data that validates that kind of argument.
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You are correct that stories do attract attention - but voters act on the implications the situation has to them. we all heard about Joe the plumber - but my situation is nowhere close to his - thus, his story meant nothing personally to me. The overall economic package and how it affected me was what mattered. IN the same way, employees act on their individual best interests regardless of what the press says (and press means whatever is publicly put out). If you are smart enough to calculate that the pay raise DL is giving doesn't overcome the increased benefit costs they are imposing on you, then you have overcome the press DL has put out... not everyone makes the effort either way and even if they do still may be forced to come to the conclusion that their situation may not be one way or another - in which case they resort to their instincts. And face it, DL has created a very strong mindset that the company will not treat them any worse than other employee groups - and in some cases quite a bit better.
The union has to couple those anecdotal statements with real evidence showing the value of the union argument that applies to everyone that will vote. Anecdotal evidence is great but EVERY voter has to understand the superiority of the message the unions make.
Clearly that did not happen in the DL elections.
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This is a critically important question and I am all ears... believe me I want to hear your case if you can make it.
Your assertion that the unions saved jobs overall should be demonstratable... show me the documents that say that labor actually cut the total price NW intended to make - not what they negotiated down from their publicly announced positions before.
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And then show me that unions categorically can add more income to its employees relative to what they could get anywhere else.
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I had no idea how the FA case turned out so I'm glad to hear she apparently was reinstated. I didn't say the company would have done the right thing on its own. I said they probably did what was right - required of them - under the law that existed at the time.
And specific to this case, how many other airline employees were subjected to this same problem - and how many were non-union vs union and restored (the total number involved should mirror the total airline employee population while to validate your position, the percentage of union employees should have improved relative to the non-union employees. Show me the data that validates that kind of argument.
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You are correct that stories do attract attention - but voters act on the implications the situation has to them. we all heard about Joe the plumber - but my situation is nowhere close to his - thus, his story meant nothing personally to me. The overall economic package and how it affected me was what mattered. IN the same way, employees act on their individual best interests regardless of what the press says (and press means whatever is publicly put out). If you are smart enough to calculate that the pay raise DL is giving doesn't overcome the increased benefit costs they are imposing on you, then you have overcome the press DL has put out... not everyone makes the effort either way and even if they do still may be forced to come to the conclusion that their situation may not be one way or another - in which case they resort to their instincts. And face it, DL has created a very strong mindset that the company will not treat them any worse than other employee groups - and in some cases quite a bit better.
The union has to couple those anecdotal statements with real evidence showing the value of the union argument that applies to everyone that will vote. Anecdotal evidence is great but EVERY voter has to understand the superiority of the message the unions make.
Clearly that did not happen in the DL elections.
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This is a critically important question and I am all ears... believe me I want to hear your case if you can make it.
Kev3188
Veteran
Please tell me you're joking.
Are you really saying that you do not know where to look for wage/benefit info?
It is. As far as DL/NW goes, I'm living proof, and I'm only one of hundreds. If that's not good enough for you, as I've already noted, it's a matter of public record. Happy Googling...
WT,
Go ask a US non-union employee back in 1992 what the company did to them and what happened to the unionized workforce.
If you cant find out I will gladly show you what was done to the non-union employees compared to the unionized ones and you will see what a difference a union makes compared to non-union in the airline industry.
Go ask a US non-union employee back in 1992 what the company did to them and what happened to the unionized workforce.
If you cant find out I will gladly show you what was done to the non-union employees compared to the unionized ones and you will see what a difference a union makes compared to non-union in the airline industry.
metopower
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This f/a story has been addressed here on this board fully. The facts are that it was a dispute regarding re testing after a false positive. Since the first sample was`ruled as fake there was no reason to test the other sample therefore she was unable to protest the results. Delta only followed the letter of the law....something that i disagree with in this case.Thankfully the final outcome was reversed and she got her job back. The testing company was removed because THEY screwed up.
